The attack of the Wongers?

blackchipjim · Jul 2, 2008

I must be imagining the increase in wongers in the casino I frequent. I can go there anytime of the day and someone is backcounting the deck. I would think that someone that is backcounting would be a little less subtle about. To those who use wonging please work on your technique and don't be so obvious about it. The dealers are well aware of what you are doing and take shuffle measures against you and the people at the table enter. If you aren't going to try to camoflage the fact don't be surprised if you get banned for the fact. blackchipjim

jack.jackson · Jul 2, 2008

I was kinda curious how Bad the problem had become. It amazes that all games havent become NMSE. In the end, I feel 21 movie, has made a negative impact on the game!

Brock Windsor · Jul 2, 2008

jack said:

I haven't seen a game with over $1000 table max that allows mid-shoe entry in a while, I guess they still have them in Nevada. Low level AP isn't going to sweat management too much.
BW

Tom007 · Jul 2, 2008

jack said:

My trip to Vegas at the end of May certainly gave the answer to the effect of the movie 21. Downtown they were hawking my play so bad I couldn't enjoy it, in fact it made me not want to play at all, I guess that is the point of heat, anyway, Last year's trip I was playing at a higher betting level and never noticed any heat at all. This year I got my first 2 back offs, both downtown.

The funny thing is I was jumping in on freshly shuffled shoes and wonging out at -1. I never really had a monster shoe the count was close to neutral for all the hours I played DT

In the end I just started playing the strip and no problem there.

blackjack avenger · Jul 2, 2008

The Casinos Are Making Money

The effect of the movie 21 is probably to fill the casinos with players who know enough to lose their money.:whip:

Just like when Thorpe came out with his book.

callipygian · Jul 2, 2008

blackjack avenger said:

Or when Bringing Down the House came out.

Sonny · Jul 2, 2008

blackjack avenger said:

I agree, but the casinos haven’t realized it yet. The movie will increase their drop by getting more people in the casino, and their hold will increase because they will be raising their bets but still playing at a disadvantage. Unfortunately, just like with Thorp’s book, the casinos will be super-paranoid for a while until they wise up. The only alternative would be to hire competent employees who can actually tell the difference between good players and ploppies, but the casinos will never go for that. They’ll just ruin their games, annoy their players and lose profits until they get the hint. That movie is a golden opportunity for them but they are going to waste it because they don’t know how to use it to their advantage. I guess that’s why all the advantage players are on the other side of the tables. We would never let an opportunity like this slip away.

-Sonny-

jimmtech · Jul 2, 2008

blackchipjim said:

I think it depends entirely on the particular casino - last week in WV, at the same table the first dealer kept spilling the cards and had to get help with how to shuffle; the next dealer could offer NO suggestions to a newbie - the dealer just kept saying she did not play blackjack and didn't know what the best move would be (repeatedly). The third dealer was probably grateful just to still be above ground and I really thought he was forgetting what he was doing between the 10 seconds it took to deal each card.

Admittedly, some dealers are very sharp, but more often than not, I have seen the reverse.

Also, ploppies have great reasons for watching before entering -

I was wait'in to see the dealer bust...

I was wait'in to see if the dealer can pay the table..

I've been so burned, I want to make sure the dealer is beatable...

Win without counting says to never enter a table until you see the dealer's upcard come up as a low card at least 3 out of 5 times...

"I don't want to get slaughtered again..."

Wongers can be too obvious, but perhaps spewing ploppyisms can help..

jack.jackson · Jul 3, 2008

Brock Windsor said:

Interesting. Ist been awhile since Ive seen any action, but hopefully that'll change soon.

Tom007 said:

.
Maybe it was just the wrong place at the wrong time.

I have a feeling everybody wants a piece of the action and counters are coming out of the woodwork. In effect, creating over zealous pitbulls, with lousy rules.

Tom said:

Ya, I dont think it matters if the shoe was hot or not. They get suspicious when somebody bumps from 10$ to 100$.

Its one thing to wong in and out, once or twice per shoe, but when you sit at a table and do it consistently. Well I guess some players are just asking to get backed-off.

blackchipjim · Jul 3, 2008

Homework

I geuss it comes down to doing your homework. If anyone has read any books on counting and they come across the section on wonging it tells you not to be obvious or go when the casinos are crowded. The kids with their ballcaps on backwards and sunglasses on are laughable and are better suited in the poker room. I can't tell you how many people stand behind the table from the begining of the shoe and then on top of it jump in after the count tanks. I take a well timed bathroom break and they aren't anywhere around. I myself wong out and never have and pretty sure never will recieve any heat. blackchipjim

Ferretnparrot · Jul 3, 2008

blackchipjim said:

iv actually began to dress like a poker player, because i feel it fits my age very well since poker is so popular with people my age, i now wear my world series poker hat, sunglasses, and even a tshirt that says "kiss my ace" its the perfect person for me to be, naturally i only play poker and have no idea how to play blackjack though, so i frequently exclaim pocket rockets yeeeeeeAAHHH boooiii! whenevre i get one ace and am waiting for another card.

callipygian · Jul 3, 2008

Ferretnparrot said:

Heh, some dealer commented about my shuffling of chips at the table and asked if I was there for a poker tournament. I told her I didn't have enough for the buy-in, but if she was kind to me maybe I could win it at the blackjack table. She said she'd try. Then I pushed "all-in" on a good count, won; the count still went up, so I let everything ride, and lost.

natdm · Jul 6, 2008

How can you backcount without being obvious though? I've done it a few times. Obviously effective, but.. Obvious. Sometimes I'll watch a friend at the table and just act like I'm watching just his plays. Other than that.. How can you not be obvious?

I got heat once when I was betting 25, then jumped to two hands of 50, but that was pretty minor.

blackchipjim · Jul 6, 2008

Use obvious

Use the obvious to your advantage, if you are younger. Act like your undecided about playing in the first place. Hold your money in your hand or chips if you came from another table. Some dealers invite you to sit down just act like a nervous nell and can't make up your mind to play or not. Wonging is about your act sometimes and you have to have an act or camo as we call it here. Most good wongers hit it and run if they can with maximum effect. You have to have your act together in order not to draw attention to yourself. blackchipjim

natdm · Jul 6, 2008

That's kind of what I do. I usually walk up just when the shoe began and say, "It's their shoe, I'll just watch." It never fails that they invite me anyways, so I say, "Well, maybe" and just shut up for a while. Even take a seat.:grin:

_shed_ · Jul 6, 2008

I guess my act is rubbish

last night, i was backcounting this shoe but it didn't get positive enough for me to join in. I did end up staying there long enough to get attention from the pit boss though.

He asked me "why don't you get in on the action?"

I just said "er, I'm not sure if I'm gonna play". Then this ploppy asks me if I take a seat next to him so he can "explain me how this game works".

The new shoe had already started and I'm counting, while he's spewing ploppyisms like "I sometimes wait until my favourite spot on the table becomes free before I join in".

Anyway, I wait until the TC becomes +2 and then start playing but because of the attention I already have, I just flat bet £5. I win 2 hands and the ploppy goes "there you are, you're in profit!" The count tanks after this point so I wong out, saying "phew, that's enough 'action' for me!"

I wong back in at a TC of +3 but all the high cards go to the other players and the dealer so I'm down. And this is how it went for the rest of the evening, my wonging just didn't pay off, as the high cards always went elsewhere and my one BJ got pushed.

This other dealer comes on while I'm sitting out at a negative count and I'm shielding my chips with my hand (not on purpose) but when I put my hands in my pocket, the dealer goes "ah, so you *are* playing then!"

I'm not going back to that place for a while, that was just scary. I just think my act isn't up to much, even though I don't look like the typical counter (I'm a 25 yr-old female).

EasyRhino · Jul 7, 2008

Wow, sounds like the place is full of ploppies.

But you're right that wonging into a near full table can be a pain. Not only will the count have huge fluctuations each round, but there's more ploppies to worry about absorbing the good cards (as opposed to just you and the dealer). It all works out in the end, but it lessens the number of hands you get at each count.

At least play two spots when you jump in.

Sonny · Jul 7, 2008

natdm said:

There is some good advice in these threads:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2789
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=4452

-Sonny-

moo321 · Jul 7, 2008

_shed_ said:

last night, i was backcounting this shoe but it didn't get positive enough for me to join in. I did end up staying there long enough to get attention from the pit boss though.

He asked me "why don't you get in on the action?"

I just said "er, I'm not sure if I'm gonna play". Then this ploppy asks me if I take a seat next to him so he can "explain me how this game works".

The new shoe had already started and I'm counting, while he's spewing ploppyisms like "I sometimes wait until my favourite spot on the table becomes free before I join in".

Anyway, I wait until the TC becomes +2 and then start playing but because of the attention I already have, I just flat bet £5. I win 2 hands and the ploppy goes "there you are, you're in profit!" The count tanks after this point so I wong out, saying "phew, that's enough 'action' for me!"

I wong back in at a TC of +3 but all the high cards go to the other players and the dealer so I'm down. And this is how it went for the rest of the evening, my wonging just didn't pay off, as the high cards always went elsewhere and my one BJ got pushed.

This other dealer comes on while I'm sitting out at a negative count and I'm shielding my chips with my hand (not on purpose) but when I put my hands in my pocket, the dealer goes "ah, so you *are* playing then!"

I'm not going back to that place for a while, that was just scary. I just think my act isn't up to much, even though I don't look like the typical counter (I'm a 25 yr-old female).

When back-counting, I try to never look at the boss, or even the dealer if possible. This is contrary to the advice of most books that you shouldn't just stare at the cards, but when back-counting, I think it draws less attention.

callipygian · Jul 7, 2008

Sonny said:

I only skimmed the two threads, but I didn't see these two techniques. I don't use these any more, so I apologize if I'm spoiling these for others.

(1) Variant on the "new player" technique: buy a laminated basic strategy card from the casino. Cradle it in your hands like it's a valuable secret; as you stand behind a table backcounting, sneak peeks at your cheat card but pretend you're pretending not to. You will look like a total idiot, pretending to hide something that you can buy at the gift store, but that's what a lot of ploppies did when the cards first became available. This is less common nowadays, and you can't use it on higher limit tables, which is why I don't use it any more.

(2) The "impatient player" technique: stand behind a full table, preferably where one or two people are already waiting. Backcount other tables, usually ones with higher limits with open spaces. When the count goes up, pretend to get impatient with waiting and play at the other table. I rarely use this any more because I rarely find the combination of full tables next to one-player tables now. Maybe it's better table management from the casino ...

Ultimately, the best way to succeed at Wonging is to be creative. Take 15 minutes to sit down and just observe people as they're walking around - do what they do. Find unique things about a casino that won't work elsewhere - a balcony that has a view of the tables, or a short slot machine that allows you to backcount from behind a row of slot machines.

The attack of the Wongers?

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