The casino nearest me. Questions about the game and CSM

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BOB2009

Member
#1
#1
The casino shuffles after about 1 deck is in the discard pile.

I read online that there is 4 Decks in the CSM they use.

I have heard from people that go to the casino that there is 8 decks in the CSM.

How would I go about getting reliable information on how many decks they use in their CSM?

And is 20% Penetration on a 4 Deck game good? I've only recently learnt the game of it all and am better at keeping count then remembering basic strategy.

I hope I don't come across as a newbie.

Getting off track now... How would I find out about how many decks are in the CSM? Is it safe to call the casino/ would they even answer a questions like that?:cool2:
 
B

BOB2009

Member
#4
#4
sabre said:
No ... you aren't going to make any money on that game.
Click to expand...
Were you being sarcastic?

I've put the specs into Casino Verite and the true count gets to 2-3 regularly. Is there something I don't understand?
 
H

Homeschool

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
BOB2009 said:
I've only recently learnt the game of it all and am better at keeping count then remembering basic strategy.

I hope I don't come across as a newbie.
Click to expand...

For starters, you should not even attempt to learn counting until you have an excellent handle on basic strategy. Mistakes in playing BS are going to cost you more than you would likely gain from counting.

And not to bust your balls, but after your post you aren't going to come across as anything but a newbie :p

Do yourself a favor and check out some of the archives and read a book or two, there are many past threads recommending good ones. (Then I suspect you will understand my above statement)

Welcome to the boards.

And no, Sabre wasn't being the least bit sarcastic......

Homeschool

P.S.: My apoligies if my response sounds a bit harsh.
 
2

21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
4 decks sounds pretty standard for a CSM. I don't believe they can even handle 8 decks but I could be wrong. And please don't tell me you're actually trying to count against a CSM. 20% penetration or whatever is terrible.
 
B

BOB2009

Member
#9
#9
Newbie with Questions!

Sorry, I was on 2 hours of sleep after a graveyard shift when I wrote my original post.

I do know BS 100%, what I meant is that I learned counting faster then BS compared to other people I know.

Basically the casino has a discard pile and a CSM, they play about until there is about 1 deck in the discard pile and then shuffle.

The Casino is Great Canadian Casino View Royal.

I'm using Casino Verite with the EXACT specs that I've witnessed at the Casino even down to how often they shuffle.

Could someone please link me to why this is bad peneration at 25% from a CSM?

I can't find any info anywhere on how this corrolates to beating the game. I if have a 99.66% edge by using BS and then up my bets on True Counts of 2+ doesn't that mean I have the edge ?:confused:
 
muppet

muppet

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
if you have any edge whatsoever counting in this game, it would be so tiny that it wouldn't justify the effort, monetary risk, and time spent playing
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
muppet is exactly right. It's too much risk and not nearly enough profit. With such shallow penetration you will very rarely see a +2 TC. You will spend the vast majority of your time playing at a disadvantage and bleeding money. When the advantage finally does come, it will be so small and so infrequent that you won't be making much money, if any at all.

-Sonny-
 
N

Nynefingers

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
BOB2009 said:
I'm using Casino Verite with the EXACT specs that I've witnessed at the Casino even down to how often they shuffle.
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Which CV product are you using? CVCX doesn't even have built in sims for such poor pen, as far as I can tell. You sure you aren't putting in 52 cards for the cut or something like that? Maybe a screenshot would help show us what you are looking at.
 
H

Homeschool

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
BOB2009 said:
Could someone please link me to why this is bad peneration at 25% from a CSM?
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25% penetration is bad PERIOD. Whether from a CSM or shoe, DD, or SD makes no difference. Here is a link that should help you some with the subject. Do yourself a favor and don't waste your time playing against a CSM!

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackjack-school/blackjack-lesson-11.php


And here is another with alot of links to other threads.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=9666



If you have other questions, you can search the archives and will likely find at least some info on ALMOST ANY topic.

Hope this helps, and if you are even halfway serious, read some books!

Homeschool
 
UK-21

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
Before Sonny posted his response, which echoes my own, I was going to write:

Think about what the penetration represents - the proportion of the cards that are played / not played before a shuffle. With a shoe game where there's around 75% penetration, you'll only be playing with an advantage 20%-25% of the time. With a four deck game with just 25% of the cards being played before a shuffle up (returned to the CSM) the instance of playing at an advantage (TC+2 or higher) will be far less. The rest of the time you'll be playing at a disadvantage, and on balance of probability will be losing money. The only way to counter this shallow penetration would be to use huge spreads when the advantage was there, and this would mean you'd need a much bigger bankroll to ensure you didn't blow the lot. Sonny basically beat me to saying this.

It is possible to calculate some detailed numbers around this, but I wouldn't think anyone would bother - it's without doubt the outcome would be grim from an advantage play standpoint. You don't need to travel to the north pole to know it's going to be cold as hell up there . . . .

The short answer is to be prepared to travel for a better game - assuming you wan't to play with an advantage.

Good luck.
 
S

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
I know someone who has actually attempted this, betting three hands of $10,000. He made a half million bucks on his first trip, and lost $625K on his second. There was no third trip.

I suppose you COULD make money from such a setup, if you were to back- count and only jump in when you have an edge. But how MUCH money? With 25% penetration, you're probably only going to be able to MAKE about one bet per hour, with an average edge of about 1% (and this is a very GENEROUS estimate). If you have a big enough BR to bet $1000, your earn per bet will be about ten bucks. So you'll be averaging about $80 per 8 hour day (With ASTRONOMICAL swings). Then after about 3 days of this hell on Earth you're probably going to get barred anyway.

It occurs to me that someone who can afford to bet $1000 will be MUCH better off springing for a plane ticket to someplace where he can make some REAL money (Thousand dollar bettors usually get their air fare picked up anyway).The only reason I could possibly see for someone who insists upon playing this game would be EGO.

My friend wholeheartedly agrees with me, and he even reluctantly admits the part about ego. :eek: :)
 
muppet

muppet

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
Sucker said:
I know someone who has actually attempted this, betting three hands of $10,000. He made a half million bucks on his first trip, and lost $625K on his second. There was no third trip.
Click to expand...
a fool and his money are soon parted :p
 
Tarzan

Tarzan

Banned
#18
#18
Just say no

I think the bottom line is don't play against a CSM! Counting against one (or attempting to anyway) is pretty darn futile and why would you bother with such a thing if there is a more suitable game available? Does the casino you go to have ONLY CSM's? Is it because you like to live dangerously?

I have toned down my true thoughts here to avoid typing out something like what Maz (I think that's who I'm thinking of) would say on this sort of post. Don't play CSM's period... unless you are strictly a casual, recreational player using basic strategy that does not care about winning or losing or playing with an increased disadvantage.
 
B

BOB2009

Member
#19
#19
Thankyou for answers.

Thank you for the info. The page explaining on why shallow penetration is bad really taught me what I was thinking wrongly about counting.

Anyways I'm thinking it's not worth my time/value to play red $5 chips anyways. I'm going to to put money aside until I have 1000 bets of $10 or $25 until I take this up seriously.

By the way there are only CSM near where I live in Vancouver BC. I'd have to fly to Alberta or Vegas but then why would I want to get barred playing $5 chips?

Thank you for the posts, if the MOD would like to lock this thread I would understand.

I recently read that being a $25 chip player is where the time investment basically pays off.
 
H

Homeschool

Well-Known Member
#20
#20
But don't let your first experiences playing/counting in a casino be with $25 units. Get some experience under your belt for the "easier on your bankroll price" of $5/hand.

Homeschool
 
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