The Declining Role of the Pit Boss

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BlackjackMan312

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
Good Morning Everyone, Has anyone else noticed the declining role of the Pit Boss, There was a time where if you wanted a comp, you talked to the boss, if you needed anything you talk to the boss, now many places say you have to talk to a host for comps. Also there was a time where most Pit Bosses were in charge of spotting and taking care of AP's. Now I would say about 75% wountnt know a card counter if a had a licease plate that said CRD CNTR (Thats available in NJ By the way LOL) , there mostly only expert on cheating techniques. Anyway, I have noticed if a Pit Boss usually sees somebody winning, in comes a table games supervisor or somebody like that to I.D. AP's. The Pit BOSS, is slowly turning into a PIT Clerk...Anyone else agree?
 
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moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Yes. That's what happens when you have corporations take over casinos. Then they have people who don't even know table games deciding to cut 3 decks off the 8-deck shoe, and institute long shuffles to keep counters and shuffle trackers away. If anyone who knew anything about counting ran the place, they'd know that you can cut 1 deck off and do 2 shuffles to get more money from the ploppies than you ever would from stopping the counters.
 
J

jimpenn

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Moo321?

"they'd know that you can cut 1 deck off and do 2 shuffles to get more money from the ploppies than you ever would from stopping the counters."

Could you please explain further or reference source.

Thanks, JP
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
jimpenn said:
"they'd know that you can cut 1 deck off and do 2 shuffles to get more money from the ploppies than you ever would from stopping the counters."

Could you please explain further or reference source.

Thanks, JP
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Don't really need a source. It's just logic. By cutting 2 more decks off you add about 30% more hands before the shuffle. And by doing a simpler shuffle, you might cut 3 minutes off of your shuffle time. That adds up to 10-15 more hands an hour on all the ploppies. Now multiply that by your counter to ploppy ratio of, let's be conservative and say 100-1, and you'll quickly see that it makes no sense to cut off 3 decks.

Let's do some math.

100 ploppies * .02 (2% disadvantage, which again is generous)
*2 units (2 units average bet size, again generous)
*10 more hands per hour=
40 more units per hour that you take from the ploppy.

Now, let's assume that for every 100 ploppies, you have a world class counter, using full indeces, spreading... 1-30. How many units an hour could he possibly take off you, providing that absolutely no one in the casino is at all skilled in game protection so they could stop him. 5 units an hour? So, we're giving up at least 40 units in order to protect ourselves from 5 units of loss.

Hell, not offering good rules tends to hurt the casino more than help it. Why? Because the ploppies double down on 8s, or soft double against 2's, or surrender a 13 against a 7. The more rules you give them, the more rope they have to hang themselves. So what if you're giving a counter using full indeces another 1% of an advantage. How many customers that come into your casino are competent counters that know full index play? I'd bet there are less than 100 counters in the country that can use full surrender indeces.

Bottom line: offer good games, and the ploppies will piss their money away, happily. You'll land more high rollers. And they know they're getting better odds, or at least more options, and they get to play more hands an hour. Sure, the counters may hit you, but if you train your staff just a little you should at least stop them from spreading so much that they can really harm your bottom line.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
moo321 said:
.............Bottom line: offer good games, and the ploppies will piss their money away, happily. You'll land more high rollers. And they know they're getting better odds, or at least more options, and they get to play more hands an hour. Sure, the counters may hit you, but if you train your staff just a little you should at least stop them from spreading so much that they can really harm your bottom line.
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interesting viewpoint. i wonder why so many casino's don't get that.
this does however prompt another thought though that might be shall we say controversial in the counting community. :devil:
that being the perspective of the lone wolfe counter AP what have you with respect to his fellow practitioners who happen to be members of good sized and effective teams. a well run team can i should suspect wreak some havoc on a casino's blackjack hold. thus indirectly the lone wolf's are going to feel the heat and response should the casino catch on.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
sagefr0g said:
interesting viewpoint. i wonder why so many casino's don't get that.
this does however prompt another thought though that might be shall we say controversial in the counting community. :devil:
that being the perspective of the lone wolfe counter AP what have you with respect to his fellow practitioners who happen to be members of good sized and effective teams. a well run team can i should suspect wreak some havoc on a casino's blackjack hold. thus indirectly the lone wolf's are going to feel the heat and response should the casino catch on.
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That's true. But how many teams are there in the country, and how frequently do they come to YOUR casino? Even if we assume that a team visits your casino every week, for 4 hours, and can take an extra 50 units an hour off you because of the better pen, you're still way ahead by adding the pen for ploppies.
 
blackjack avenger

blackjack avenger

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
Deal the cards and make money!

Casinos make money at blackjack when they actually deal the cards. It would seem that any time they spend not dealing due to complicated shuffles or shallow penetration would cause them to lose money. They are worried that a couple of players in their casino might have an idea what to do so they deny dealing cards to the many who do not!
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
And the winner is shufflemaster

Although I am pleased with shufflemaster failures, one of their few big table game winners has been the ASM.
Here is a machine that most ploppies will play against and solves most of the casino problem of both shuffle tracking and penetration. Hard to track a shuffle you do not see and if the casino decides to cut the shoe in half they really do not lose much because they only need to pull a freshly shuffled stack from the machine.

This device will still give you a decent game if the casino gives you decent pen but has been a better dollar spent by the casinos than perhaps any of the more complicated shufflemaster product that are supposed to do more and result in fewer players and profits.

ihate17
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
ihate17 said:
Although I am pleased with shufflemaster failures, one of their few big table game winners has been the ASM.
Here is a machine that most ploppies will play against and solves most of the casino problem of both shuffle tracking and penetration. Hard to track a shuffle you do not see and if the casino decides to cut the shoe in half they really do not lose much because they only need to pull a freshly shuffled stack from the machine.

This device will still give you a decent game if the casino gives you decent pen but has been a better dollar spent by the casinos than perhaps any of the more complicated shufflemaster product that are supposed to do more and result in fewer players and profits.

ihate17
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Only problem is the expense of shufflemasters. I believe they are several thousand dollars a month.
 
Ferretnparrot

Ferretnparrot

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
I recal reading something that explained how it was a law put into effect in some parts of nevada prior to the knowledge of basic strategy that a player could only double down on 10 and 11, it was dont to protect the gereral public as at the time blackjack was a game where peopel lost money very fast. It just happens to be still in place because nobody has made an effort to get rid of it, its not the casinos that place that rule, at least all the time.
 
W

WRX

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
Yes, the role of the pit boss is declining at many properties. They're just big paper shufflers. They're left no time for anything else. This can be a good thing. Count your blessings.
 
R

runningaces

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
The pit boss is the one who will tell you " you're just better than us" or sir or madam " you're not allowed to play here anymore. But, you have to be pretty damn stupid to have the pit boss on his own think your counting cards. It's the eye in the sky that gets you, then they call down and the pit boss just relays the message to you from the conclusions theyve came to upstairs...that you're just better than they are.

It's easy enough to change your bets up when the pit is lurking, he might take a walk to other end of pit and not be watching you next hand, but remember, their still watching upstairs. In my short experience in AP, I feel the difference of a player that's gonna make money and not get booted and a player that might hit a casino once or twice but get backed off is recognizing when the casino is just starting to watch you, this is something in my opinion you can't learn from a book, it's an inner instinct that the great players have, knowing when to walk away.
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
Not sure about this

Ferretnparrot said:
I recal reading something that explained how it was a law put into effect in some parts of nevada prior to the knowledge of basic strategy that a player could only double down on 10 and 11, it was dont to protect the gereral public as at the time blackjack was a game where peopel lost money very fast. It just happens to be still in place because nobody has made an effort to get rid of it, its not the casinos that place that rule, at least all the time.
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You go to two casino in the same area in Nevada and one will restrict doubling and the other will let you double on any two cards. So if a law is on the books, no one is enforcing it.

ihate17
 
bj bob

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
ihate17 said:
You go to two casino in the same area in Nevada and one will restrict doubling and the other will let you double on any two cards. So if a law is on the books, no one is enforcing it.

ihate17
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This happens in the same pit. Several clubs in Reno and Sparks allow DAS at the higher limit tables right next to the D10's.
 
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