The poker situaton I hate the most

[Thunder]

You've been at the table for about 6 minutes. Somebody raises it preflop in mid position in a 1/2 nl game to $10. You're the only caller with AJ suited and are on the button.

Flop comes out J, 9, 4 (no flush draw)

He bets $20. You raise it to $60. He goes all in at a cost of only $20 more to you. You call. You're screwed, he has pocket aces.

Would any of you of played it differently? If you only call on the flop, u risk him getting a straight possibly or catching trips. Either way, he's probably going all in on the turn.

 

[blackjacktilt]

Marginal at best

You've been at the table for about 6 minutes. Somebody raises it preflop in mid position in a 1/2 nl game to $10. You're the only caller with AJ suited and are on the button.

Flop comes out J, 9, 4 (no flush draw)

He bets $20. You raise it to $60. He goes all in at a cost of only $20 more to you. You call. You're screwed, he has pocket aces.

Would any of you of played it differently? If you only call on the flop, u risk him getting a straight possibly or catching trips. Either way, he's probably going all in on the turn.

You're first mistake is playing A,J suited to a raiser.
This hand is marginal at best along with A,Q and will get you into nothing but trouble.
Call me a tight player, but I've played literally hundreds of thousands of hands and keep records. A,J is not profitable.
The only way you can win a decent pot to make up for losses in the past with this hand is if you're able to limp in a multi-way pot and hit a draw or flop a monster.
Also a 1/2 game is almost always straight forward. Meaning when someone raises 5 times the BB or higher, they have a legit hand and hands like K,Q, A,J, A,Q and even A,K are far behind.
It's tough to fold in a 1/2 game, especially when you've been sitting there for a while with nothing to show, or if you've just entered a game and receive a hand like you did. You must study opponents at whatever game you are playing before you get in on the action.
Also, bluffing in a 1/2 game almost never happens.
It's ABC poker.
Best of luck

 

[moo321]

Yeah, I don't know if I'd call the preflop raise. You COULD call the flop... in all honesty though, if you call a raise with AJ and have a jack high flop, you need to stack off for another $100.

Unless you see a tell or he's a total locksmith...

 

[BMDD]

The main problem imo is that you've only been at the table for 6 minutes. It would be extremely helpful to have a feel for what the pre-flop raiser's range is and how often he is continuation betting on the flop.

I agree with Moo that you could call on the flop. If he does not already have you beat then you are most vulnerable to KQ, which has 12 outs against you. AK and AQ have 4 outs, and 10's, 8's, or less only have 2 outs. If he bets out on the turn(most likely all-in) then you may be able to fold. If it's checked to you, you can now protect your hand by putting your opponent all in.

 

[apex]

I think you played it right, or at least not bad. You pretty much know you are beat when he goes all in, but the last $20 has nearly the correct pot odds to catch a 3rd jack. If you had $300 in front of you, then you fold when he 3 bets the flop but with $100 your options are limited.
Folding preflop is probably correct in middle position, but on the button?? I have to disagree. Hell I would make it $30.

 

[DeTalores]

Top top is not that strong of a hand. When some random player at a 1/2 game is willing to get it all in on the flop they either have an overpair or a set almost always. When you raise the flop, think about his range... what is he going to call with that is worse that he would raise in middle position with? QT is really the only drawing hand, do you think he would raise it in MP preflop? If not then what is the purpose of raising his bet on the flop?

I would probably 3b AJs on the button if I was going to play it at all.

 

[grdred944]

You've been at the table for about 6 minutes. Somebody raises it preflop in mid position in a 1/2 nl game to $10. You're the only caller with AJ suited and are on the button.

Flop comes out J, 9, 4 (no flush draw)

He bets $20. You raise it to $60. He goes all in at a cost of only $20 more to you. You call. You're screwed, he has pocket aces.

Would any of you of played it differently? If you only call on the flop, u risk him getting a straight possibly or catching trips. Either way, he's probably going all in on the turn.

Don't listen to those critical of your pre-flop play. Calling a fairly standard pre-flop raise in 1/2NL with a suited ace is not a bad play -- especially on the button.

I'm not so certain about the raise to $60 after his pot sized bet. A min raise would have gotten you the same information. Outside of that, there is not much you can do in that spot.

 

[Sucker]

In a $1-$2 NL game with NO info from reads (new to the table):
preflop reraise > fold > call. If it were a $2-$5 game, or if you had time to get a read on this player, then the correct order of decisions would very likely be different.

But don't get me wrong - you played the hand just fine; there's almost NO difference among the 3 decisions, and a very good argument could easily be made for all three.

In the situation you've described, you WILL win money in the long run no matter HOW you play it; but in THIS spot, you ran into what's known as a "cooler". You played well and lost the hand.

Save your introspection for when you NEED it. That's one thing about poker: When you play a hand that you would have folded had you known your opponents hole cards, it always SEEMS as though you made a mistake. If the opponent would have turned over K-J suited, or a bluff; or one of umpteen other hands that could have conceivably been in the typical $1-$2 players' range; we wouldn't even be HAVING this discussion.

 

[Thunder]

The main problem imo is that you've only been at the table for 6 minutes. It would be extremely helpful to have a feel for what the pre-flop raiser's range is and how often he is continuation betting on the flop.

I agree with Moo that you could call on the flop. If he does not already have you beat then you are most vulnerable to KQ, which has 12 outs against you. AK and AQ have 4 outs, and 10's, 8's, or less only have 2 outs. If he bets out on the turn(most likely all-in) then you may be able to fold. If it's checked to you, you can now protect your hand by putting your opponent all in.

I agree. Had I been at the table longer and saw that he was a very tight player, I wouldn't have called preflop but unfortunately I wasn't. I've seen people raise preflop often times without a pocket pair to 5x the bb.

 

[DeTalores]

Don't listen to those critical of your pre-flop play. Calling a fairly standard pre-flop raise in 1/2NL with a suited ace is not a bad play -- especially on the button.

I'm not so certain about the raise to $60 after his pot sized bet. A min raise would have gotten you the same information. Outside of that, there is not much you can do in that spot.

Calling with a suited ace can be standard if its Ax suited, and you have good implied odds by having others in the hand. Axs is not a good hand to flat call a middle position raise with in a heads up pot.

Now AJs isn't just an Ax hand, what can you really hope for when you hit Top-top? That they have KJ or QJ, a pair of jacks is a fairly decent hand but against continued aggression it won't be good most of the time.

Since this is a 1/2 donkfest think what happens when you 3b preflop. One of these situations will happen
A) Fold out stupid hands like QJ QT KT etc and win the pot
B) Fold out a hand like AQ AJ or AT and win the pot
C) Fold out pp's 22-66 and win the pot
D) Give pocket pairs bad odds to set mine and if they have JJ-KK if any overcard comes on the flop they just fold because you have the initiative in a 3b pot
E) you get 4b(in 1/2 you rarely see anyone 4b unless they have AA, sometimes KK) and can easily toss your AJ
F) You 3b they flat you with overs, you make standard c-bet regardless of flop it doesnt really matter because the only way they are continuing in a 3b pot is with a hand that beats yours, then check turn and hope to hit the nuts on river if not give up.


Also "Raising for information" is a completely flawed idea.

 

[Thunder]

Also, bluffing in a 1/2 game almost never happens.
It's ABC poker.
Best of luck

I often bluff and see other people bluff in AC. It's a skill set that requires experience because if you bluff at the wrong time, you're likely going to get killed. Here's a good example of when to bluff. You're at a tight table with only 2 other limpers and you're last to act. The board is a bunch of low cards with, 8,5,2. Everyone checks and it's to you. More often than not, you'll win the hand by making a good bet here.

 

[DeTalores]

I often bluff and see other people bluff in AC. It's a skill set that requires experience because if you bluff at the wrong time, you're likely going to get killed. Here's a good example of when to bluff. You're at a tight table with only 2 other limpers and you're last to act. The board is a bunch of low cards with, 8,5,2. Everyone checks and it's to you. More often than not, you'll win the hand by making a good bet here.

Well this is definitely where hand ranges come in. Most players at 1/2 aren't thinking players. They look at their hand then the board and make their decision on what to do.

On your example board against non-thinking players betting when IP in a checked pot will usually take it down. At the same time though if someone has a hand like A8 they probably aren't folding because they have pair and top-top is the nuts. Alot of players get carried away with "bluffing" and continue to fire on the turn and river without even thinking about their hand range weighed against the opponents hand range.

 

[grdred944]

Also "Raising for information" is a completely flawed idea.

I won't argue with you at 1/2NL but raising for information is hardly flawed as you climb in limits. In this scenario there was no information to be had since hero had no history. But, also in this scenario, there was no reason to raise to $60 when a min raise would have arrived at the same result.

 

[DeTalores]

I won't argue with you at 1/2NL but raising for information is hardly flawed as you climb in limits. In this scenario there was no information to be had since hero had no history. But, also in this scenario, there was no reason to raise to $60 when a min raise would have arrived at the same result.

So you think "raising for information" gets better the higher the limits you're playing at :S ?

 

[duanedibley]

He bets $20. You raise it to $60.

Just check/call the flop bet. There are no draws on the board, and by raising you fold out most of his worse hands.

If you wait until the turn to get your money in, he will now be committed to call with a weaker range of hands. He might also continue a bluff if you showed weakness on the flop by just calling.

 

[fubster]

i'm folding preflop, stacks just don't work out in your favor. as played i'm generally calling flop to allow him to continue with all his bluffs, but if he stacks off light then raising is fine.

 

[fubster]

Don't listen to those critical of your pre-flop play. Calling a fairly standard pre-flop raise in 1/2NL with a suited ace is not a bad play -- especially on the button.

I'm not so certain about the raise to $60 after his pot sized bet. A min raise would have gotten you the same information. Outside of that, there is not much you can do in that spot.

1) preflop is pretty close to lighting money on fire given stacks and betsizing

2) we aren't raising for "information," we're raising because we usually have the best hand and would like to wager all the money

 

[fubster]

In a $1-$2 NL game with NO info from reads (new to the table):
preflop reraise > fold > call. If it were a $2-$5 game, or if you had time to get a read on this player, then the correct order of decisions would very likely be different.

But don't get me wrong - you played the hand just fine; there's almost NO difference among the 3 decisions, and a very good argument could easily be made for all three.

In the situation you've described, you WILL win money in the long run no matter HOW you play it; but in THIS spot, you ran into what's known as a "cooler". You played well and lost the hand.

Save your introspection for when you NEED it. That's one thing about poker: When you play a hand that you would have folded had you known your opponents hole cards, it always SEEMS as though you made a mistake. If the opponent would have turned over K-J suited, or a bluff; or one of umpteen other hands that could have conceivably been in the typical $1-$2 players' range; we wouldn't even be HAVING this discussion.

with deeper stacks i'd agree, but what everyone seems to be neglecting to realize is that effective stacks are ~50bb. when someone puts 10% of their 50bb stack in pre, i want to have a TON of showdown equity vs them and i don't think AJs has enough, especially if your flop plan basically consists of "if (flop.equity >= 0) then shove, else fold"

 

[fubster]

Just check/call the flop bet. There are no draws on the board, and by raising you fold out most of his worse hands.

If you wait until the turn to get your money in, he will now be committed to call with a weaker range of hands. He might also continue a bluff if you showed weakness on the flop by just calling.

agree with the second part too, since so many people will be like "well i guess i have to call because lol pot odds" even though they have like 5% equity

 

[aslan]

I often bluff and see other people bluff in AC. It's a skill set that requires experience because if you bluff at the wrong time, you're likely going to get killed. Here's a good example of when to bluff. You're at a tight table with only 2 other limpers and you're last to act. The board is a bunch of low cards with, 8,5,2. Everyone checks and it's to you. More often than not, you'll win the hand by making a good bet here.

Right, and I'd hardly call that a bluff, which it technically is, because you are playing position. When you see someone doing that, which you will, it's alway fun to raise him (even if you have nothing). :laugh:

A good time to bluff is when you seemingly have nothing (and you actually don't have anything). If you get away with it, great, but if you get caught for a small bet, greater yet. You have just set up a great play for later when you seemingly have nothing (but you actually do have a hand). It also makes the table believe you play "loose," which, after all, is what you want to do.

On the other side of the fence, it would be a good idea when someone gets caught bluffing to size up whether his bluff lost any serious money. If you're not the brightest bulb in the pack, you might fall for your own gambit. :laugh: