The whole point of card counting...

C

Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
The whole point of card counting is to identify a time when you have an advantage and to identify when you don't have an advantage. A card counter will not have an advantage every time he places a bet this is when the card counter will bet his small bet or the table minimum. On some hands the player will have an advantage averaging 2% this is when the card counter will put the money out there. The goal is to win as many large bets as possible, and minimize your loses on your small bets by playing good basic stragedy on those too.

The count will also help you in the way you play your hands if you play with composition dependent stragegy, this stragey is much harder to learn than basic stragedy but will give you a bigger advantage. There are certain index plays you make when playing on composition dependent stragey. A good example is when you have 12 vs a 2,3,4,5, or 6 if the count gets to be negative enough you could hit a 12 vs a 6. The idea is the more negative the count the more likely the dealer will turn her drawing hand into a pat hand.
On positive counts with a 12 vs a 2 or 3 you should stand even though it violates basic stragedy. This is what composition stragey is all about. Looking at other peoples hand to make decisions on your own hand will help you win at an even higher win rate than just counting cards alone.
 
ChefJJ

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Cardcounter said:
The whole point of card counting is to identify a time when you have an advantage and to identify when you don't have an advantage. A card counter will not have an advantage every time he places a bet this is when the card counter will bet his small bet or the table minimum. On some hands the player will have an advantage averaging 2% this is when the card counter will put the money out there. The goal is to win as many large bets as possible, and minimize your loses on your small bets by playing good basic stragedy on those too.

The count will also help you in the way you play your hands if you play with composition dependent stragegy, this stragey is much harder to learn than basic stragedy but will give you a bigger advantage. There are certain index plays you make when playing on composition dependent stragey. A good example is when you have 12 vs a 2,3,4,5, or 6 if the count gets to be negative enough you could hit a 12 vs a 6. The idea is the more negative the count the more likely the dealer will turn her drawing hand into a pat hand.
On positive counts with a 12 vs a 2 or 3 you should stand even though it violates basic stragedy. This is what composition stragey is all about. Looking at other peoples hand to make decisions on your own hand will help you win at an even higher win rate than just counting cards alone.
Click to expand...
Just a question...are you saying that composition strategy is not necessarily connected to the RC or TC, but to cards on the layout? Interesting.

good luck
 
QFIT

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Sorry, but that is not the definition of "composition dependent strategy." CD, as opposed to TD (Total Dependent) relates to the individual cards that make up your hand.
 
C

Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Can you clarify?

What do you mean by RC or TC?

Yes composition stragedy depends on the cards on the layout. If you notice that a lot of the cards on the layout would not help you if you where to draw them than you are in a more favorable position to draw than if you only new your own cards. Once a card is on the layout you can not draw it until the deck is reshuffled.
 
C

Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
Heres how the cards on the layout effect it.

Lets say you are playing at a full table and its the first shuffle out of the deck before you placed your bet the count is at zero but by the time that you get your hand the count could either be positive or negative depending upon what the other players at the table hold. Lets say that you where unlucky on the cards that where dealt to you and you where dealt a hard 12 against a dealer up card of a 4. If you look around the table and see that the other players used up a lot of the tens in the deck you can simply use that knowledge to your advantage and take a card. What you really doing is having an updated count during the middle of the hand and playing accordling.
Playing a hard 12 is one of the most useful index plays in blackjack. Other useful index plays are weather or not to double when you got a 10 or 11 especially against dealer upcards of 7-ACE. If you happen to pick up an 11 when the dealer is showing an ace doubling is a really close decision. If you notice that the people next to picked up a whole bunch of face cards doubling against an ace is no longer a good play. But if they picked up a bunch of babies or small cards than doubling an 11 against an ace is a good play.

The idea is that if you are at a table with 4 or 5 other people the count before the cards where dealt might have been zero but by the time you play you hand the count might be -2 or plus 2. On games that are dealt down a prefer to sit in the middle seat that way I can see at least two other peoples hands before making my own decision.
 
C

Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
Heres how the cards on the layout effect it.

Lets say you are playing at a full table and its the first shuffle out of the deck before you placed your bet the count is at zero but by the time that you get your hand the count could either be positive or negative depending upon what the other players at the table hold. Lets say that you where unlucky on the cards that where dealt to you and you where dealt a hard 12 against a dealer up card of a 4. If you look around the table and see that the other players used up a lot of the tens in the deck you can simply use that knowledge to your advantage and take a card. What you really doing is having an updated count during the middle of the hand and playing accordling.
Playing a hard 12 is one of the most useful index plays in blackjack. Other useful index plays are weather or not to double when you got a 10 or 11 especially against dealer upcards of 7-ACE. If you happen to pick up an 11 when the dealer is showing an ace doubling is a really close decision. If you notice that the people next to picked up a whole bunch of face cards doubling against an ace is no longer a good play. But if they picked up a bunch of babies or small cards than doubling an 11 against an ace is a good play.

The idea is that if you are at a table with 4 or 5 other people the count before the cards where dealt might have been zero but by the time you play you hand the count might be -2 or plus 2. On games that are dealt down a prefer to sit in the middle seat that way I can see at least two other peoples hands before making my own decision.
 
C

ck85abc3

Member
#8
#8
Shouldn't it only matter what the true count is when deciding what to play? If you flip heads on a coin 27 times in a row it is still a 50/50 chance you will get a tail on the next flip.
 
ChefJJ

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
ck85abc3 said:
Shouldn't it only matter what the true count is when deciding what to play? If you flip heads on a coin 27 times in a row it is still a 50/50 chance you will get a tail on the next flip.
Click to expand...
The TC (or RC in a system like KO) is what hints at an AP to make a non-BS play. So, it sounds like Cardcounter is correct in what he is saying, its just that those are observations of what counting cards and adjusting your play can do for an AP...not what composition play is.

good luck
 
supercoolmancool

supercoolmancool

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Cardcounter said:
The whole point of card counting is to identify a time when you have an advantage and to identify when you don't have an advantage. A card counter will not have an advantage every time he places a bet this is when the card counter will bet his small bet or the table minimum. On some hands the player will have an advantage averaging 2% this is when the card counter will put the money out there. The goal is to win as many large bets as possible, and minimize your loses on your small bets by playing good basic stragedy on those too.

The count will also help you in the way you play your hands if you play with composition dependent stragegy, this stragey is much harder to learn than basic stragedy but will give you a bigger advantage. There are certain index plays you make when playing on composition dependent stragey. A good example is when you have 12 vs a 2,3,4,5, or 6 if the count gets to be negative enough you could hit a 12 vs a 6. The idea is the more negative the count the more likely the dealer will turn her drawing hand into a pat hand.
On positive counts with a 12 vs a 2 or 3 you should stand even though it violates basic stragedy. This is what composition stragey is all about. Looking at other peoples hand to make decisions on your own hand will help you win at an even higher win rate than just counting cards alone.
Click to expand...
Cardcounter said:
Lets say you are playing at a full table and its the first shuffle out of the deck before you placed your bet the count is at zero but by the time that you get your hand the count could either be positive or negative depending upon what the other players at the table hold. Lets say that you where unlucky on the cards that where dealt to you and you where dealt a hard 12 against a dealer up card of a 4. If you look around the table and see that the other players used up a lot of the tens in the deck you can simply use that knowledge to your advantage and take a card. What you really doing is having an updated count during the middle of the hand and playing accordling.
Playing a hard 12 is one of the most useful index plays in blackjack. Other useful index plays are weather or not to double when you got a 10 or 11 especially against dealer upcards of 7-ACE. If you happen to pick up an 11 when the dealer is showing an ace doubling is a really close decision. If you notice that the people next to picked up a whole bunch of face cards doubling against an ace is no longer a good play. But if they picked up a bunch of babies or small cards than doubling an 11 against an ace is a good play.

The idea is that if you are at a table with 4 or 5 other people the count before the cards where dealt might have been zero but by the time you play you hand the count might be -2 or plus 2. On games that are dealt down a prefer to sit in the middle seat that way I can see at least two other peoples hands before making my own decision.
Click to expand...
Tell us something we don't know.
 
R

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
5 Levels of Playing Strategy

There are at least five levels of hand playing strategy -- each one being superseded by the next.
The shallowest is Total Dependent basic strategy such as is found on a typical basic strategy chart. It considers your hand total only and nothing else.
The next is Composition Dependent strategy which takes into account the specific cards that compose your hand, but not beyond. It's just a tad more aware and tells you for example, to stand with 16 vs. 10 when you have 7/5/4.
The next is Board Dependent strategy. It supersedes the first two, since it is smart enough to tell you to hit your 7/5/4 vs. 10 if more 10's are on the board than small cards. Board Dependent strategy gathers enough information to tell you how to play roughly a half dozen other hands more efficiently based upon the cards on the board. In this sense, it "card counts" the board -- but no deeper.
The next is Card Counting strategy. It takes into account all the cards that have been played thus far and determines the best hand play by assuming that all remaining cards are equally available. It supersedes the first three methods since it knows more about the remaining cards than the others.
The fifth level would be Slug Tracking. Rather than just being aware of all the cards that remain as a single group, an efficient slug tracker would know the approximate hi/lo density of the cards he's drawing from right now.
Finally, I suppose the theoretically ultimate hand playing strategy would be to memorize the order of every card that's been played throughout an entire shoe/deck and keenly follow each card thru the riffles with eagle-eye accuracy, so that you know the exact order of the cards about to be dealt. Can you say "Mind Play?"
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
supercoolmancool said:
But can anyone watch one card even if it is not marked?
Click to expand...
Maybe if it's the first, second, bottom, or second-to-bottom card (which is often more than enough!). I've never heard of anybody who can follow a random card through a casino shuffle.

-Sonny-
 
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