Training greedy dealers

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Dopple

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
I had a decent little run for me and made about 150 in half hour or so and had to run. I had been toking alot for my game like 2 bucks per 6d shoe. When I cashed out the guy acted like I really stiffed him as I left no extra at the color up time.

I only made like 300 he probably got 5, what does he want a green?

In the future would you:

1. Leave nothing
2. Leave less and hope for an attitude adjustment
3. Leaving more is not an option

We all know we want the dealer on our side but I wont deal with terrorists.

He is not pushing me into leaving more and makes me only want to leave less with that kind of attitude.
 
creeping panther

creeping panther

Banned
#3
#3
Terrorist

He wants 15%:laugh:

When you start making your moves tip the dealer on some bets, 1$, if the dealer is a positive dealer. I will tip often if it is a positive dealer when I am making a move,,,but never if I dislike a dealer,,,,and dislike and positive takes in a wide swath of territory.;)

Never give them the money, play it along with your bets as a bet for the dealer.

CP
 
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tthree

Banned
#4
#4
When I left after that encounter with a dealer, I would say something like this:I usually leave a nice tip for a dealer after a good session. The tip depends on the way the dealer affected my enjoyment at the table. Here is my tip for you. Don't try to make a customer feel obligated to tip you. The ones that tip when they otherwise wouldn't are not going to play at your table again. The ones that would have anyway like me have the same feeling but probably won't leave you a tip after that kind of attitude. My tip will bring you much better tips in the future so it is probably worth more than what I would have left anyway.
 
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21forme

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
If the dealer's a jerk and shows disdain for what you do leave, leave nothing next time.

There's one toke-hustling dealer who gave me 10-20 white chips when I bought in, after asking for green and red. I placed all the white chips in the circle as part of my first bet. Not a word...
 
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Youk

Active Member
#6
#6
tthree said:
When I left after that encounter with a dealer, I would say something like this:I usually leave a nice tip for a dealer after a good session. The tip depends on the way the dealer affected my enjoyment at the table. Here is my tip for you. Don't try to make a customer feel obligated to tip you. The ones that tip when they otherwise wouldn't are not going to play at your table again. The ones that would have anyway like me have the same feeling but probably won't leave you a tip after that kind of attitude. My tip will bring you much better tips in the future so it is probably worth more than what I would have left anyway.
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I'm sorry, but the above is really bad advice. You are making a fool of yourself to believe you will change the overall attitude of the dealer by talking to them about tip hustling. Plus, you are making a scene, which may give your game more scrutiny during subsequent sessions (assuming you are playing rated). It's better just to not tip at all and just leave.

Yes, dealer's livelihood is based off of tips. But, we APers come into this game as a job. Tipping brings down our EV in an already-high variance game.
 
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Youk

Active Member
#7
#7
Dopple said:
I had a decent little run for me and made about 150 in half hour or so and had to run. I had been toking alot for my game like 2 bucks per 6d shoe. When I cashed out the guy acted like I really stiffed him as I left no extra at the color up time.

I only made like 300 he probably got 5, what does he want a green?

In the future would you:

1. Leave nothing
2. Leave less and hope for an attitude adjustment
3. Leaving more is not an option

We all know we want the dealer on our side but I wont deal with terrorists.

He is not pushing me into leaving more and makes me only want to leave less with that kind of attitude.
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Dealers are always greedy. They'll take all of your winnings every time, and even your initial bankroll too.

Every APer, especially ones who used to be ploppies, need to make a tough decision on what you want to do regarding tipping. It depends on what your attitude is. If you are there to make money, don't tip at all. Many of the best APers never tip. If you play at a place all the time, you may need to tip a little so that the dealers do not fully turn against you. Advice from other APers would be to tip only 1-2% of your EV. For someone playing at your level (which I assume to be red chip), that is 1-2% of $10-20/hour, or less than a dollar an hour. IMO, tipping is not worth it, but it's up to you. I'm 100% in the camp of not tipping the dealer...I don't care about facing the wrath of the dealer, especially if they are dealing a notch game. You might develop a reputation if you play there a lot, but it should not affect your play.

I challenge you to keep records of how much you tipped during each session. Once you hit 100 hours or so of play, check your tip total. If you can live with that tip total, then so be it. During my first year, I had a tipping rate that was nearly half a unit an hour, which was approximately 40% of my EV!! :mad:
 
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paddywhack

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
There's been many threads regarding this. Tip-hustling dealers are the worst and I refuse to tip them, regardless if I've had an excellent session or not.

I prefer not to tip. HOWEVER, if you do play a store a lot, AND if you're well known to them, I don't see any way to not tip them on a decent WINNING session. Gotta keep the crew happy and have them appreciate you being at the table. Stiff them too often and who knows what kind of talk gets started - and that talk may mean a big difference in longevity.

Always keep records of what you tip. In the end, only you can justify how much of your EV you're giving away and whether it's worth it or not.

That being said, if you're someplace that you're not going to be back to for a while - stiff 'em.
 
T

tthree

Banned
#9
#9
Youk said:
I'm sorry, but the above is really bad advice. You are making a fool of yourself to believe you will change the overall attitude of the dealer by talking to them about tip hustling. Plus, you are making a scene, which may give your game more scrutiny during subsequent sessions (assuming you are playing rated). It's better just to not tip at all and just leave.

Yes, dealer's livelihood is based off of tips. But, we APers come into this game as a job. Tipping brings down our EV in an already-high variance game.
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Not tipping is another sign they look for to spot APs. It is one that has a pretty weak correlation but it is another thing they look at. My bankroll keeps me under the radar so I can get away with more but I wasn't talking about making a scene. The dealer may have an ability to bring heat down on you so in that respect you may be better off keeping your mouth shut. It is all a matter of how you deliver the comment. If it is taken as an attempt to help them get more tips, you are fine. If it is perceived that you are being a smart ass or belittling him you probably openned a can of worms better left alone.
 
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pit15

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
Most dealers I play seem perfectly happy dealing to someone who doesn't bitch every time they lose. If I'm losing big I'll groan about it or make comments but never in a nasty/angry way like all those stupid ploppies who don't realize they're playing a -EV game where they're EXPECTED to lose.

Yeah I got some pretty bitchy dealers who tip hustle like hell and what not, but they can go to hell anyway. Even if I tipped them like 100 bucks at the end of the shift they wouldn't be happy, so why bother?

I don't bother with cover anymore. I hit the same stores and the same dealers every week. Plenty of dealers/PCs see me every weekend, some at multiple casinos mind you (they'll see me scouting out one store on day shift, then when they go to their job on swing shift they see me scouting out that store). Some probably know I'm up to something, but most of those probably don't really give a crap. If you're burning yourself out working jobs at 2 different casinos then thinking about what that guy who's constantly around all the casinos every weekend is up to isn't really your top priority.
 
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SuperD

Member
#11
#11
Most dealers if they see you winning are going to want about 10% or they are not happy. They are under the assumption that you are there to gamble so if you happen to win a few hundred dollars they want their share for giving you that money. As an advantage player you have to know what your expected win rate is and determine how much you feel like giving away without giving more than your EV. There are some dealers that may know what is going on and a tip may get them to increase your EV. In this instance I always tip as they are increasing my EV. In the case when the dealer will not be happy with the minimal tips you can give as an AP then you are better off not tipping at all. There is no point in lowering your EV if the dealer isn't going to be happy with it. Other than that tip what you can to the dealers that appreciate it, and definitely tip the ones that help you.
 
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SuperD

Member
#13
#13
Increase pen, increase speed of game, shuffle when deck is negative. There are many times I have had dealers that will increase pen or even deal after the cut card or shuffle before cut card when asked.
 
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alwayssplitaces

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
SuperD said:
Increase pen, increase speed of game, shuffle when deck is negative. There are many times I have had dealers that will increase pen or even deal after the cut card or shuffle before cut card when asked.
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How do you go about asking for a shuffle when the count is negative?

To the OP: You're tipping too much. I try to find excuses to not tip.
 
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Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
alwayssplitaces said:
How do you go about asking for a shuffle when the count is negative?

To the OP: You're tipping too much. I try to find excuses to not tip.
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Just ask the dealer to cut deeper, reshuffle the shoe frequently, let you wong in and out in a no MSE game, show their hole card and next card to you! I've done it many times with great success!
 
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Shoofly

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
Many of the posts in this thread are concering dealer attitude. What the dealer expects, what he demands, what makes him happy, etc. I think we should treat an obnoxious dealer the same as an obnoxious ploppy. Ignore them. If a dealer is pleasant, we can chat with him and tip at our pleasure. If he is not, ignore him. After all, the only thing we need from the dealer is to deal the cards. His attitude is irrelevant.
 
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