Trip report: First time using a count

#1
Hi everybody, about 2 weeks ago i was in Vegas and the poker action was kinda dry so i decided to gamb00l it up playing blackjack using straight basic strategy. And damn, i never realized blackjack was such a sick sick game, just like poker. Up a couple of bills and then the next minute, down a couple hundred, sick. So after losing a couple hundred for the trip, i was determined to beat the game. I firmly believed that thegame could be beaten with the right knowledge and skillset or maybe im just a degen gambler.

When i got back, i read Blackjack Bluebook 2 and then i read KO Blackjack. The KO count is what i decided to use and study more.

Yesterday i was visiting a friend down in San Diego near SDSU. Afterwards i went to Viejas to practice and get a feel for my newfound knowledge. It was a good learning experience.

I started off at the $5, 8 deck and 6 deck games. I just watched at first trying to keep the count. It's pretty easy to keep the count if you are just watching the cards and not playing. But once you sit down and play, its different story. It was very difficult to keep the count and also play my hand at the same time. But besides that, what i learned is that it's practically useless to count in these games. With a IRC of 0, the count will almost never reach +16(6 deck) or +22(8 deck). Its too tedious, too much work for almost no gain. Additionally, if you lose count(which happened very often), you would have to wait for a new shoe. I have decided that i will no longer waste my time trying to count 6 and 8 deck shoes. This is kinda ironic because when i was reading my books, i was manily focusing on the 6-8 deck stuff and disregarding the single deck stuff.

Then i found the single deck games which i didn't even plan on trying. The single deck games have a higher min. bet. Luckily i found 2 tables with $10 min. When i first started, there were 2 other plp. And with 3 plp total, you only get 2 rounds before the shuffle. This wasn't good. I don't know how much advantage you can get with only 2 rounds before the shuggle. I sat out till it was either heads up or 2 handed. Playing heads up, i found that i had the same problem as before. It was hard to keep the count while trying to play my hand at the same time. When i get a hand where i have to hit, i find the problem is that i have to keep track of the running count when the hit card comes out and also i have to add up my hand at the same time. I lost count a few times but with the single decks, the shuffle is never too far away. But when its 2 handed, i do alot better. I think cause the game goes a bit slower, i have more time to absorb all the info. Two handed is the optimal # of players for me.

The final tally, I lost $200 at in BJ and also $300 in poker. Its pretty ironic that i lost in poker cause i didn't even plan on playing poker. The plan was just to practice blackjack for the whole time.

All in all, it was a good learning experience. I will re-read KO blackjack to gain more knowledge about the single deck games and strategies.

Thanks for reading all. Any thoughts, comments, advice? Also is there any free software that i can download which will help me get better at counting?
 
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blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#2
Keep trying!

I too use the KO count method and found it fairly easy to incorporate into my game. The gentlemen on this site can really help you alot just ask. I am still struggling with the negative variance thing that you encounter as a counter. Keep practicing so it becomes natural to count without even thinking. The more you practice the easier it becomes and less tiring. I play against 8 deck shoes and the big pluses don't come that often but they do come. The popular oppinion is to wong in qnd out of big shoe games. Keep trying, I am and getting better everyday. blackchipjim
 
#4
CSUF_gambler said:
Then i found the single deck games which i didn't even plan on trying. The single deck games have a higher min. bet. Luckily i found 2 tables with $10 min. When i first started, there were 2 other plp. And with 3 plp total, you only get 2 rounds before the shuffle. This wasn't good. I don't know how much advantage you can get with only 2 rounds before the shuggle. I sat out till it was either heads up or 2 handed. Playing heads up, i found that i had the same problem as before. It was hard to keep the count while trying to play my hand at the same time. When i get a hand where i have to hit, i find the problem is that i have to keep track of the running count when the hit card comes out and also i have to add up my hand at the same time. I lost count a few times but with the single decks, the shuffle is never too far away. But when its 2 handed, i do alot better. I think cause the game goes a bit slower, i have more time to absorb all the info. Two handed is the optimal # of players for me.
I don't think those were 'REAL' 1D games. What were the rules? The 6-8D games are the best ones in that casino - only playing during the positive counts - what was the penetration? zg
 
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21forme

Well-Known Member
#5
Yup, the variance is nerve-wracking. I was in AC on Wed., playing 6D at the Borgata. After an hour, I was up 40 units, doing well on several 10 unit bets at a good count. I was thinking of calling it quits when the shoe ended (that's what I would have done in my pre-counting days.) I played 3-4 more hours and wound up the day up about 5 units.

Don't give up on 6D shoes. I find the count goes positive about 20% of them.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#6
I haven't been to Viejas in a couple years, but my info shows the only single deck at Viejas playing 6:5 on blackjacks, which make it terrible, possibly non-beatable by counting.

But I feel your pain, playing while counting is a tough adaption to make.

As for handling negative shoes, I recommen wonging when possible. Just hang back and backcount until the count gets bettable, then jump in. Your variance will still feel just as high, but at least you won't be "wasting your time" in negative play. Especially on 8d shoes. You may find multiple shoes where you don't even play. Once you sit down at a table, you can stay for the next shuffle, but leave if a few decks are dealt and the count hasn't gone anywhere.
 
#8
zengrifter said:
I don't think those were 'REAL' 1D games. What were the rules? The 6-8D games are the best ones in that casino - only playing during the positive counts - what was the penetration? zg
What do you mean by REAL? The cards were dealt face down. And there is no double down after splitting
 
#9
EasyRhino said:
I haven't been to Viejas in a couple years, but my info shows the only single deck at Viejas playing 6:5 on blackjacks, which make it terrible, possibly non-beatable by counting.
So any game with 6:5 payout is unbeatable? Don't all single deck games in vegas have this payout?
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#10
No game that offers 6:5 on a natural is a) beatable and b) blackjack.
At no point in recent histroy has a natural paid anything other that 3:2 and to claim (as many casinos do in their advertising) that any other lesser payout is a blackjack game is just wrong. It alters the balance of the game so much in favor of the casino that it changes it to an entirely different game.
Never play any game with a 6:5 payout unless you are using a technique a good bit more powerful than counting.

RJT.
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#11
6:5 vs 3:2

RJT said:
It alters the balance of the game so much in favor of the casino that it changes it to an entirely different game.
This game is often called "crapjack".

With 6:5, it's like you're not being paid at all for 1 out of 5 of your blackjacks. Playing fast, at 100 hands per hour, you should get almost 5 blackjacks per hour. Betting $10, that's $15 per hour that you give away.
 
#12
3:2 in Vegas

I just got back from Vegas last month and although there were a few casinos I didn't go into on the strip I hit the vast majority of them. The only games I saw that paid 3:2 on Blackjack were at the MGM, the Monte Carlo and the Mandalay Bay. Of those, the lowest limits were at the Monte Carlo in the mornings - $5 tables. I know that there are games downtown that probably pay 3:2 but we rarely go downtown. I refuse to play unless it's 3:2 and so that results in me standing around not playing quite a bit. Very frustrating - I used to be able to walk into any Las Vegas Strip casino and play.
 
#13
tango said:
I just got back from Vegas last month and although there were a few casinos I didn't go into on the strip I hit the vast majority of them. The only games I saw that paid 3:2 on Blackjack were at the MGM, the Monte Carlo and the Mandalay Bay. Of those, the lowest limits were at the Monte Carlo in the mornings - $5 tables. I know that there are games downtown that probably pay 3:2 but we rarely go downtown. I refuse to play unless it's 3:2 and so that results in me standing around not playing quite a bit. Very frustrating - I used to be able to walk into any Las Vegas Strip casino and play.
Every casino in Vegas except for two deals 3:2 blackjack. But there are very few places to play 3:2 single deck. Reno is the place for that.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#14
Why write this?

tango said:
I just got back from Vegas last month and although there were a few casinos I didn't go into on the strip I hit the vast majority of them. The only games I saw that paid 3:2 on Blackjack were at the MGM, the Monte Carlo and the Mandalay Bay. Of those, the lowest limits were at the Monte Carlo in the mornings - $5 tables. I know that there are games downtown that probably pay 3:2 but we rarely go downtown. I refuse to play unless it's 3:2 and so that results in me standing around not playing quite a bit. Very frustrating - I used to be able to walk into any Las Vegas Strip casino and play.
Casinos have good and bad games and you wrote this after definately not checking all the tables. I believe the only casino on the strip that only has tables that do not pay 6/5 is O'Sheas. Even places like Sahara, with terrible blackjack, has mostly 3/2 tables. You mention Monte Carlo, MGM and Mandalay Bay- if you visited these casinos you more than likely spent time at Luxor, Tropicana and Ex and at these places you also would have found predominately 3/2 tables.

ihate17
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
#15
I know some of us advocate wonging in to 6-deck games. I don't like doing that. If it is crowded it might be impossible. Sometimes you might wait for hours for a positive count. Just shoot me. I prefer to wong out aggressively (mark my spot if I like the table) for bathroom or smoke breaks or fake cell phone call breaks. Even better, play 2-deck games.

8-deck you should avoid unless you have no other choice. Even then I might choose to stay home and watch TV.
 
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