Variations to BS using ace five count

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parttimelover

New Member
#1
#1
Hello guys,

I live in the UK and play cards primarily for fun. I've had basic strategy committed to memory ever since I started gambling.

Factoring in the casino loyalty card cashback of about 0.1% and comps/benefits worth about £150 ($250) per month I figure I break even. They give me free parking right in the centre of a ridiculously busy city, free buffet and discounted booze so I don't complain but it'd be nice to find myself reducing the house edge as much as possible and even turning it in my favor.

I decided to employ ace 5 (http://www.am3-radio.us/Ace5.pdf) because it's not overly intensive, plus I'm thick :p

I understand everything in the pdf except the handful of variations to basic strategy that go with it. Can anybody help me interpret those changes, particularly for 16, A2, A4 and A7??

I will be eternally grateful !!:):)
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
These are known as deviations. Learn the illustrious 18. For example if 16vX and 12v3 is a HIT and the count is positive, you would NOW stand. Likewise if 12v4 is a stand(BS) and the count is negative you therefore NOW would hit. They're actually determined by the True count. So know your TC and use the appropiate index.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#3
#3
jack said:
These are known as deviations. Learn the illustrious 18. For example if 16vX and 12v3 is a HIT and the count is positive, you would NOW stand. Likewise if 12v4 is a stand(BS) and the count is negative you therefore NOW would hit. They're actually determined by the True count. So know your TC and use the appropiate index.
Click to expand...
He's using A-5 count. There are no variations. zg
 
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parttimelover

New Member
#4
#4
Thanks for the replies, guys! Very much appreciated.

Also thanks for clarifying that the BS changes are called deviations.

Just to lift a short passage from the linked PDF above: "What makes my version unique is that there are a few changes to Basic Strategy that have a small but measurable effect. Six of them in all."

I've consulted his handy chart on the 2nd page but can't really interpret what he's saying. I get that with a neg count on Ace Five we might alter the way we play the likes of 15,16,A4 maybe. I'm a novice though and just don't understand the strategy changes.

I circled the few bits I couldn't fathom out and uploaded a pic. Once again, any and all comments are much appreciated.

(Dead link: http://d.imagehost.org/view/0286/a5)
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
Cant open the PDF but heres my take on it.

For the Soft hands with an index. If the index drops below -3 for A4v4 you would now hit. Double at negative -3 -2 0 +2 +5 and higher etc.

For A7vA stand at 0> and higher. Hit at -1 and lower. But only in a S17 game. Always hit A7vA in a H17 game.

The other stiff indexes appear to be Later Sr indexes only. Sr 15vX at -2 and HIGHER. Hit at -3.

Always Sr 16vA if offered otherwise hit. The asterisk by 16 could either mean always Sr this hand if available or use the noted index(doesnt show). It could also represent 88vX but unsure without seeing the PDF. More than likely you should have an index for 16vX. Do you???
 
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boneuphtoner

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
I ran a sim on this a couple of years ago....I switched computers and didn't save that file, but my memory is that this system will eliminate the house edge and give you a very very tiny advantage. KO-rookie (no indexes, raising your bet at the key count only) was MUCH stronger. I wouldn't think of using this to wager any funds that are important to you, but it is what it is....probably fine for a recreational player looking to play barely ahead of the house over the long term.

As far as use of indices, others might disagree, but I wouldn't bother. I'm going off of memory, but I remember the BC was around 0.500 or so, but the PE was far worse (like around 0.2). With PE that low, you are probably wasting your time.
 
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DrEntropy

Active Member
#8
#8
boneuphtoner said:
As far as use of indices, others might disagree, but I wouldn't bother. I'm going off of memory, but I remember the BC was around 0.500 or so, but the PE was far worse (like around 0.2). With PE that low, you are probably wasting your time.
Click to expand...
Ace/5 PE is about 0.05 I concur: Not worth trying to find indexes for!
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
tallmanvegas said:
Has anyone experienced any good results from using this system. Looks very user friendly
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One of my buds is a truck driver who crashs at The Wild Wild West truckstop a few times a month. He plays their pretty decent DD game and what he does is he only counts the 5s. When four or more are out of the deck, he triples his bet, so he spreads $10 to $30. Claims he gets good results, but he overtips like crazy. $5 a drink and $5 every BJ, as well as $5 at the end of each dealer shift.
 
tallmanvegas

tallmanvegas

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Good idea, I believe I can master a weak system like ace 5 and keep a very accurate count. I dabbled with hi lo and ko and made too many mistakes or lost focused due to some of the hot cocktail servers
 
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DrEntropy

Active Member
#12
#12
roger123doger said:
the 6 deck game in that pdf gives a +.25% advantage with the ace5 (spreading 1-4) but the knockout rookie gives a .26 advantage (spreading 1-5)

which is better?
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The ace5 wongs out at a count of -6 (playing 70% of hands). The knockout rookie number you quote is for play all.
 
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boneuphtoner

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
roger123doger said:
the 6 deck game in that pdf gives a +.25% advantage with the ace5 (spreading 1-4) but the knockout rookie gives a .26 advantage (spreading 1-5)

which is better?
Click to expand...
Don't know where you got those numbers from, but the SCOREs are not even remotely comparabe...KO Rookie being much stronger. Ace-5 is a winning system in the long run, but not by much.
 
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DrEntropy

Active Member
#17
#17
roger123doger said:
what would be the optimal wong out point on a 6d using knock out?

so many geniuses on this board :eek:
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The book gives a 'exit strategy' on page 120. Use that, you will improve your edge to about 0.5%! (Playing ~66% of hands, assuming you have to wait for the same table to shuffle up... i.e. worst case)
 
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boneuphtoner

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
tallmanvegas said:
Would the sim for the ace front count be close to the ace 5 count?
Felt?

Thanks
Tallman
Click to expand...
I have no idea, hopefully Fred Renzey will see this and chime in. My gut feeling is the A-5 may be slightly weaker, but that is just that, a gut feeling
 
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