Video Blackjack with Mechanically Dealt 6 Deck Shoe

[azbjdealer]

Hi all! I am new to the forum and have recently taken a great interest in Blackjack. So much so that I just took and passed the dealer course at the local casino school.

I have been playing for about 6 months, and have been perfecting my counting skills along the way. I use the standard system: 2-6 (+1), 7-9 (neutral), 10-A (-1).

Recently, one of the local casinos installed one of these video machines. However, this one is not like the standard computers. Although you bet using a touch screen, the cards are mechanically dealt from a shoe, and it is visible during play in a big dome in the center of the machine. It's kind of cool actually.

Because these machines give a set amount of time for each player to make decisions, the dealing is relatively slow (as compared to an experienced human dealer). This has allowed me to count successfully for the past few weeks. I've only lost a handful of times over several weeks, and the loss was minor.

However, I have noticed that the machine uses 12 decks, and seems to stop randomly in the first deck and reshuffle. BUT, the machine always deals 6 decks before shuffling. So, at first I thought this could be to thwart counters. However, I think 6 decks is 6 decks.

I noticed that when the count goes above 15, I can win almost every hand until about +10. Then, I begin to bet down to the table minimum.

The method that has been very successful for me is to bet the table minimum ($1) until the count gets to +15 or better. When this happens, I bet $10 per hand until the count goes to +10.

Now, this takes time to win. On average, I can usually profit about $10-$15 per shoe. Some shoes is less because thew count fluctuates up and down and does not stay steady above +10.

I usually win on average $75-$100 per session, with a session being about 3-4 hours on average.

I would love to hear some other experiences folks have had on these machines, and whether or not you al think this has been a lucky fluke or am I on to something good here.

After 3 weeks I am up $685 (with 4-5 visits per week).

What do you all think?

 

[UK-21]

Any chance of seeing a photo of this contraption?

No experience of course, but I would think that with 12 decks and 50% penetration (regardless of the randomised shuffle routine), I would suspect that your healthy results are more down to good luck than anything else.

If you search the forums I'm pretty sure you'll find some references to the number of decks in the game being so many it affects the general dynamics of the game. Although I've never been able to prove it, I think there must come a point where increasing the number of decks will have an affect on the advantage that each TC brings - ie, a TC increase of +1 won't roughly equate to a step advantage of c0.50%.

I think it's generally accepted that an 8 deck game, with good penetration and liberal ruleset can be beaten and APs can eek out a +EV. But with 50% penetration no way. They've shown up in London now, although I've never played one (don't need to as there are better games about in the Capital).

Another question though . . . . do you think it's really necessary to undergo 80 hours tuition/training in order to deal a BJ table? I'm assuming this is pretty standard in the States because dealers have to learn to deal pitch games, DD and shoes? And how much of that time was spent in learning procedures around chip refills and security, cashing up routines, game security etc etc. Thanks.

Oh, and good cards in the future.

 

[Speedy99]

Check the pictures in this thread

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=18635

The rules and Pen sucked

 

[UK-21]

OMG . . . what the F*** next? I can't believe a firm has gone to the trouble of designing and manufacturing something like this and taken it to market? Not exactly a potential mass market consumer product . . . just who are going to chisel away at their profits to pay the purchase or leasing costs of these things?

I can't see them catching on in the UK somehow - would think that people who make the effort to travel to a casino for a night out will want to play at a traditional table with a real live dealer with a pulse dealing the cards? And rumour has it that UK casinos aren't the goldmines people are given to believe, with many recent closures.

 

[shadroch]

OMG . . . what the F*** next? I can't believe a firm has gone to the trouble of designing and manufacturing something like this and taken it to market? Not exactly a potential mass market consumer product . . . just who are going to chisel away at their profits to pay the purchase or leasing costs of these things?

I can't see them catching on in the UK somehow - would think that people who make the effort to travel to a casino for a night out will want to play at a traditional table with a real live dealer with a pulse dealing the cards? And rumour has it that UK casinos aren't the goldmines people are given to believe, with many recent closures.

You are overlooking one very important factor.
Machines can't sue their employer. Here in the USofA, casinos are struggling with patrons that want to smoke vs employees who are entitled to a safe working enviornment.
For the casino- No overtime, no days off, no maternity leave, no retirement payouts.- the employee of the future.
For the players- no limits on their smoking and no tipping.
Win Win.

 

[azbjdealer]

Check the pictures in this thread

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=18635

The rules and Pen sucked

Yup, that's the same exact machine. I went again today and was able to eek out a $60 over 2.5 hours of play (roughly 6 shoes). Several times the count never got better than +3 but I did notice something very surprisong the two times the count got high...

I was able to take advantage of the high count twice when it got to be +15 I made $25 bets and won (one was a double). I then bet down and on the next deal the count rose to +18. This happened twice on two different shoes. On the very next hand, the machine stopped to reshuffle even though there was almost half a shoe left! Thi sleads me to belive that when the count gets to +18 or so, the machine is going to stop and shuffle a new shoe!

Now, I'm not saying you can't take advantage of these machines, because I think I have been, but you better do it before the count reaches +18 because it's going to reshuffle. On the other 4 shoes the count never got high enbough and the machine dealt the whole shoe before reshuffling. This is undoubtedly done simply to thwart counters. I should have known that a machine would have some messed up stop-loss system. However, after about 30 days, I'm up $745 from playing it while counting. Take from that what you will.

To answer some other questions, the dealer class I took was 60 hours, but as there were only two of us, the instructor let us take the test after just 30 hours of instruction and I got 100% (and I'm no rocket scientist-LOL). So no, 80 hours is definitely not needed to learn how to deal. However, the class certification is pretty much necessary to get an audition at any of the local Native American casinos.

As for curriculum, you get a 25-page book that covers everything from receiving and signing for your chips to cashing out your tips. You learn what to say and when, how to shuffle, deal, and pay-out, and pretty much every aspect of the game. Security and game control is covered extensively. Even how your personal hygeine should be is covered (like cutting and grooming nails, shaving, etc). The class was $399 and worth every penny if you ask me. Not to mention that you can return to the school anytime and use the equipment and they help with placement as well.

 

[UK-21]

Thanks. My daughter has aspirations of attending university in London in the not too distant future, and unfortunately mum and dad are not in a position to give her a free ride - so she's going to have to find herself a job whilst she's there. I've suggested she might look at casino dealer - she managed to reach a level of competency that, IMHO, is up to the standard of some of the staff at the local place I've visted after about ten hours of practice. Still some way to go before she'll be ready for an interview and audition, but I've no doubt she apply the polish and get to where she needs to be. The only other issue is the personal licence, which is all about criminal records check and personal solvency than any issue of competence to do the job - as far as the GC who issue them are concerned, that's solely an issue for the operators who employ them.

There are a number of dealer schools in the UK, but as the casino industry is very small in comparison to the States, not too many of them. Those that exist run courses of around 8-12 weeks (some are just three days a week though) with the aim of turning out competent BJ, Roulette and Hold'em dealers. Costs vary, although I have seen £2,000 being asked for, with guarantees of a placement and job at the end of it. I would happily pay for her to attend one of these, but I'm extremely sceptical of what she's going to get out of it over and above the opportunity to practice with all all of the "real" gear. As I'm fully kitted out to run casino party evenings that's a non-issue, as we have everything any dealer school will provide.

Now to robbie the robot managing the tables . . . . I can see where Shadroch's coming from. If you want something better than a glitzy electronic arcade, but don't want a lot of the staff hassles, these could be the half-way house answer. In the UK the smoking issue's been dealt with (no smoking in enclosed public places for several years now - it's just about been the final nail in the coffin of the independent pub trade) and the savings in employee benefits and costs would be, I think, a fine call. They look great, but I think the novelty factor is time limited. We'll see if they ever make it to this side of the Atlantic.

With regard to the advantage of playing them, azbjdealer - I'm sure you've already done the sums? If it reshuffles at 50% pen or when the count hits RC+18, the very best TC will be +3; an RC of 18 shortly before the 50% point. The best advantage then will be, in theory, around 1%. But with six decks not dealt there's just too high a potential for those additional high cards not to put in an appearance. I don't think the house has got too much to worry about.

Good cards.

 

[shadroch]

Something is very wrong here. A casino can not shuffle when the count favors the player but deal when the count favors the house. no legit machine would be programed to do this.

 

[azbjdealer]

Something is very wrong here. A casino can not shuffle when the count favors the player but deal when the count favors the house. no legit machine would be programed to do this.

You may be right. It's just pure speculation on my part. I have no solid proof that this is what's happening. I just know what I experienced.

Yesyerday, the count only got that high once while I was playing and as I remember, the machine stopped and reshuffled then as well. I guess the only other thing I can do is to actually count (not in the card counting sense of the word) how many cards are dealt in between shuffles. I know the machine has two 6 deck shoes, but it seems when the count plateaus at +18 (which is not the "true" count = count/divided by # of decks left in the shoe), the machine stops and turns to the other full shoe. Weird.

As it's a machine, I think the casino would be allowed to program it that way as long as it was not skewing the odds in the house favor so much so that it would be considered rigged. Don't know for sure, and not been able to find out too much about the machine other than the company makes the "airball" video roulette machine in the same casino.

Normally, I don't favor these machines but I have been using it to practice counting as the minimum bet is only $1, as opposed to $5, $10, $15 or more on the "live" BJ tables.

 

[azbjdealer]

Thanks. My daughter has aspirations of attending university in London in the not too distant future, and unfortunately mum and dad are not in a position to give her a free ride - so she's going to have to find herself a job whilst she's there. I've suggested she might look at casino dealer - she managed to reach a level of competency that, IMHO, is up to the standard of some of the staff at the local place I've visted after about ten hours of practice. Still some way to go before she'll be ready for an interview and audition, but I've no doubt she apply the polish and get to where she needs to be. The only other issue is the personal licence, which is all about criminal records check and personal solvency than any issue of competence to do the job - as far as the GC who issue them are concerned, that's solely an issue for the operators who employ them.

There are a number of dealer schools in the UK, but as the casino industry is very small in comparison to the States, not too many of them. Those that exist run courses of around 8-12 weeks (some are just three days a week though) with the aim of turning out competent BJ, Roulette and Hold'em dealers. Costs vary, although I have seen £2,000 being asked for, with guarantees of a placement and job at the end of it. I would happily pay for her to attend one of these, but I'm extremely sceptical of what she's going to get out of it over and above the opportunity to practice with all all of the "real" gear. As I'm fully kitted out to run casino party evenings that's a non-issue, as we have everything any dealer school will provide.

Now to robbie the robot managing the tables . . . . I can see where Shadroch's coming from. If you want something better than a glitzy electronic arcade, but don't want a lot of the staff hassles, these could be the half-way house answer. In the UK the smoking issue's been dealt with (no smoking in enclosed public places for several years now - it's just about been the final nail in the coffin of the independent pub trade) and the savings in employee benefits and costs would be, I think, a fine call. They look great, but I think the novelty factor is time limited. We'll see if they ever make it to this side of the Atlantic.

With regard to the advantage of playing them, azbjdealer - I'm sure you've already done the sums? If it reshuffles at 50% pen or when the count hits RC+18, the very best TC will be +3; an RC of 18 shortly before the 50% point. The best advantage then will be, in theory, around 1%. But with six decks not dealt there's just too high a potential for those additional high cards not to put in an appearance. I don't think the house has got too much to worry about.

Good cards.

Good point about the number of casinos as opposed to the US. I'm sure that the UK casinos will give her an audition without any kind of official certificate. And if you have the equipment at home, might as well utilize it. If you want to PM me, I'd be happy to mail you out a photocopy of the book the school gave me. It's only 25 pages or so and it might help you to train her at home. Be happy to do it.

In my case, I needed the school because most of the Native American casinos (if not all) in Arizona require you to have a certificate from a school that is certified by the Arizona State Board for Private Post-Secondary Education. Basically, it's juts a way for them to ensure that people who have no clue what they are doing don't apply for auditions and waste their time I guess.

Although, from what I've seen, a lot of these dealers are very, very slow. But, what really sucks is I have a recently found out that a dumb ass misdemeanor on my record that I got when I was 18 (possession of alcohol by an underage person) might stop me from getting the job!

So, I'll have to pay a lawyer to have that expuinged I guess. But, friends who work at the casinos have told me that the background check is so extensive that it may not matter. They still might find out. All I can say about that is nobody is perfect, and one stupid mistake I made as a kid shouldn't hurt me now. The way of the world I guess.

I think it would be a different story in Vegas. Guess you'd probably have to be at the top of your game for that.

I have had an idea though. I've been thinking about buying a real table and all of the accessories and starting my own little business. Having Blackjack birthday parties and ordering tables for special events is kind of a big thing out here, and not many people are doing it. I'm thinking if I get together enough cash to buy all of the stuff I need (I'd need about $3,000 to get started, what with business cards, equipment, newspaper ads, a website, etc) I might be able to do something here.

What do you all think?

 

[UK-21]

The biggest single expense will be a full sized roulette wheel. In the UK a second hand one of these will set you back around £700 - £1,200, depending on it's condition. I expect they'll be cheaper in the States for the simple reason that there are more of them in circulation.

Tables need to be easily transportable, so really need some sort of dismantlable or foldable legs. Again in the UK there isn't a huge market for redundant casino furniture, and although I bought three I ended up making two myself (one BJ, one casino stud poker) at a cost of around £110 each (including the felts which I picked up cheap). The biggest pain was doing the armrests (I'm no upholsterer) - I used pipe insulation foam and covered it - although in the States I know you can buy it ready moulded by the foot and just staple it on.

All the rest is easily obtainable, and I did have some stuff sent over from a casino supplies dealer in LV. It has all made for some great parties.

When you've enough notches on your tally stick I will e-mail you and take up your kind offer for a photostat of the training manual you received. Most welcome.

 

[Blackjackdealer]

Although, from what I've seen, a lot of these dealers are very, very slow. But, what really sucks is I have a recently found out that a dumb ass misdemeanor on my record that I got when I was 18 (possession of alcohol by an underage person) might stop me from getting the job!

So, I'll have to pay a lawyer to have that expuinged I guess. But, friends who work at the casinos have told me that the background check is so extensive that it may not matter. They still might find out. All I can say about that is nobody is perfect, and one stupid mistake I made as a kid shouldn't hurt me now. The way of the world I guess.

I wouldn't worry about the misdemeanor honestly. Apply anyway, and just make sure you are 100% transparent with the gaming commission. Also, make sure if you have any negative credit on your report you can explain it. There are people with worse backgrounds in the gaming industry.

 

[azbjdealer]

I wouldn't worry about the misdemeanor honestly. Apply anyway, and just make sure you are 100% transparent with the gaming commission. Also, make sure if you have any negative credit on your report you can explain it. There are people with worse backgrounds in the gaming industry.

As far as I'm concerned, all of the hoops you have to jump through just for a menial job these days is ridiculous. That's why I have been getting by the past two years doing odd jobs and working for myself.

At my previous job, was there two years and was working as a Food & Beverage Manager at a nice golf resort and making pretty great money for a single guy.

However, I was on salary and that means at least 50 hours a week, with 55 being more like the average. At any rate, I busted my ass, never had one sick day in two years, and always went above and beyond. Know what it got me? A lay-off because they decided to go with a contract staffing company so they would not have to pay employee benefits anymore.

I got no notice at all and did not see it coming. I showed up to work one day thinking everything was all peachy-keen and was told to go see the HR Director. Of course, that was after I completed the payroll and 4 hours worth of other necessary duties.

Oh, and when I got laid off I did not even receive a simple "thank-you". The HR Director's last words to me were: "Well, at least you can collect unemployment." Great, I went from taking home $925 per week to $240 per week in one fell swoop. Oh, and when I asked for a letter of recommendation, I was given a chain letter that simply stated that I was let go due to a "force reduction". Great. Thanks so much.

So, I've had it. Even these $8-$9 per hour jobs want a drug test, credit check, background check, driving record, and every other thing. And guess what, I don't have good credit due to some trouble paying off my credit cards and student loans because I lost my job and could not find a comparable one right away.

So, here I sit, saying screw the machine and the rat race. I'll continue to work for myself and supplement with some BJ wins here and there. Sure, I may never get rich, but at least I have peace of mind.

 

[UK-21]

You were getting $240.00 a week unemployment benefit? Wow, that's about £160.00 in UK Sterling.

In the UK, the equivalent is job seekers allowance which is a maximum of £53.45 for people under the age of 25 years.

 

[azbjdealer]

You were getting $240.00 a week unemployment benefit? Wow, that's about £160.00 in UK Sterling.

In the UK, the equivalent is job seekers allowance which is a maximum of £53.45 for people under the age of 25 years.

Wow. I can't see how you could live on that. You can also collect for 72 weeks at $240 per week, but I did not want to stay on that long because in about 6 weeks I would have lost my apartment and car at that pay rate.

I need to make about $350 per week to cover all of my expenses (car, rent, utilities, food) and then any left over I can save or do as I please. Still, I was making a little over $900 per week and now doing what I like to call "hustling" (odd jobs, eBay, BJ, and a small online business) I average around $450-$500 per week. Not great I guess but it gets me by and I have a lot more free time now.

Still, it's tough just eeking by like that. I have an Associates Degree and still it's almost impossible to find a good paying job in my field here in Arizona (Tourism, Hospitality, Resort, Industry). The economy has really hurt that business here.

But hey, everyone has problems, right?

I'm not sure how the economy is faring over in the UK, but here in the States it's the worst I have ever seen and I know many people who have lost their homes and some friends that are even reduced to living in their parent's basement or garage and taking the bus to get around. So, I guess life isn't too bad for me.

Not to bring politics into the forum, but the sad thing is that this country will probably never get back to it's former state. It really hurts to think about it actually.

 

[Blackjackdealer]

Eventually things will settle, they always do. Its negative variance.