What is a good resource for learning craps.
- Thread starter Phantom702
- Start date
Tino Gambino's The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible is the best single printed (book or electronic) resource on the subject.
I can attest to an improved knowledge base and technique from MP's book...even after a solid decade of study and almost as much in application. The requirements are physical and mental, and this book does an excellent job of addressing both elements thoroughly.
good luck:joker:
I can attest to an improved knowledge base and technique from MP's book...even after a solid decade of study and almost as much in application. The requirements are physical and mental, and this book does an excellent job of addressing both elements thoroughly.
good luck:joker:
WARNING:
Since the advent of "dice control" most casinos have quietly resurfaced their
tables to make them rock hard; and those that haven't tend to have 14" tables.
The hard tables make dice control an utter absurdity.
Give the enemy of a bit of credit before you throw your money away !
FOREWARNED is FOREARMED.
Since the advent of "dice control" most casinos have quietly resurfaced their
tables to make them rock hard; and those that haven't tend to have 14" tables.
The hard tables make dice control an utter absurdity.
Give the enemy of a bit of credit before you throw your money away !
FOREWARNED is FOREARMED.
FLASH, hard tables don't bother me or several other practitioners I know. It's the overly bouncy ones that are more of a challenge (i.e. Borgata & Taj) IMO.
Also, 14' vs. 12' is negligible unless you are a player that can only shoot from next to stick. But you do bring up a good point, a one trick pony on the dice table will likely be stimeyed by nuances like those. To each his own.
In a way though, I like your thinking FLASH. The less people out on the dice tables influencing the dice, the better for me :grin:
good luck:joker:
Also, 14' vs. 12' is negligible unless you are a player that can only shoot from next to stick. But you do bring up a good point, a one trick pony on the dice table will likely be stimeyed by nuances like those. To each his own.
In a way though, I like your thinking FLASH. The less people out on the dice tables influencing the dice, the better for me :grin:
good luck:joker:
" … It's the overly bouncy ones that are more of a challenge …
I M H O it is the hardness that makes the tables bouncy.
Perhaps I am mistaken. I cannot feel anything under the felt that would make them "bouncy" but the hardness is self-evident.
A couple of years ago the dice stayed on the table, but nowadays they bounce right off the table at a shocking rate.
I M H O it is the hardness that makes the tables bouncy.
Perhaps I am mistaken. I cannot feel anything under the felt that would make them "bouncy" but the hardness is self-evident.
A couple of years ago the dice stayed on the table, but nowadays they bounce right off the table at a shocking rate.
There actually ARE a couple of dice control techniques that really DO work, but you will not find them printed in THAT book, or in ANY book; for that matter. These moves remain among the most closely guarded secrets in the business. It's unlikely that you would ever find one of the practitioners of this art who will even ADMIT to knowing it, let alone BRAGGING about it.
Anyone feeding you any sort of a success story is probably either trying to FOOL you, or more likely; fooling himself.
As FLASH said, FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED. But if you want to spend several months or years of your time (& money) finding out for yourself; you have my blessing.:grin:
Anyone feeding you any sort of a success story is probably either trying to FOOL you, or more likely; fooling himself.
As FLASH said, FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED. But if you want to spend several months or years of your time (& money) finding out for yourself; you have my blessing.:grin:
Bounciness
FLASH, digging deeper into topic of bounciness we've probably got a number of factors at play these days. Although I cannot attest to traveling to dice tables in more than 6 states and 2 Canadian provinces (surely there are a few successful players that get around quite a bit more), it looks like there are two keys:
* layout material
* layout underlayment
The taughtness of a new felt/billiard cloth layout seems to produce more spring when the dice land from a steeper angle, especially if there is "yaw" (a term from the book, but a good description anyhow) in the dice. Worn felt loses some of this quality. An extreme opposite of worn felt is new microfiber...very springy, and I typically avoid it because it is tough for me to tame.
Underlayment of the felt plays a part. Remembering to the not-so-distant past of 12 years ago, the tables where I first started out at could handle high-arcing dice with a thud. Kinda like dropping them right onto plywood, which is probably what was right under the felt. Don't know if it was my limited range of play (could only get to a couple casinos at that time) or the "progress" of the last decade, but a fair amount of places seem to have
Now, I've never seen a table layout being changed (one box man told me they change it weekly, another says it's more like a month plus), but some do use something between the wood base and the layout material. A dealer told me cork (sounds odd to me) at one place, and another said foam. But FLASH, I would venture to say that a decent amount may not use anything (it seems all but the Nugget downtown LV don't).
Of course, I should have tempered all of this with the necessity for a low speed throw. Speed and force kill when trying to keep the cubes in check.
Enough out of me
If AP dice is a myth, then all of it is moot.
FLASH, digging deeper into topic of bounciness we've probably got a number of factors at play these days. Although I cannot attest to traveling to dice tables in more than 6 states and 2 Canadian provinces (surely there are a few successful players that get around quite a bit more), it looks like there are two keys:
* layout material
* layout underlayment
The taughtness of a new felt/billiard cloth layout seems to produce more spring when the dice land from a steeper angle, especially if there is "yaw" (a term from the book, but a good description anyhow) in the dice. Worn felt loses some of this quality. An extreme opposite of worn felt is new microfiber...very springy, and I typically avoid it because it is tough for me to tame.
Underlayment of the felt plays a part. Remembering to the not-so-distant past of 12 years ago, the tables where I first started out at could handle high-arcing dice with a thud. Kinda like dropping them right onto plywood, which is probably what was right under the felt. Don't know if it was my limited range of play (could only get to a couple casinos at that time) or the "progress" of the last decade, but a fair amount of places seem to have
Now, I've never seen a table layout being changed (one box man told me they change it weekly, another says it's more like a month plus), but some do use something between the wood base and the layout material. A dealer told me cork (sounds odd to me) at one place, and another said foam. But FLASH, I would venture to say that a decent amount may not use anything (it seems all but the Nugget downtown LV don't).
Of course, I should have tempered all of this with the necessity for a low speed throw. Speed and force kill when trying to keep the cubes in check.
Enough out of me
If AP dice is a myth, then all of it is moot.:laugh: They're closely guarded because you have to learn them yourself. :laugh: I've spent a decade working on my own skills, and there's only one person who I have ever worked to share the physical skill with, and only one who has worked with me. So I agree.
MP's book is the first I've ever purchased or read about AP craps, and what I've found valuable are more of the betting ratios, advantage calculations, and other more "mental" aspects of the craft.
I, like you, Sucker could care less about success stories. Knowledge is part of the game that can be shared. Technique is another story.
MP's book is the first I've ever purchased or read about AP craps, and what I've found valuable are more of the betting ratios, advantage calculations, and other more "mental" aspects of the craft.
I, like you, Sucker could care less about success stories.
Knowledge is part of the game that can be shared. Technique is another story.
See also - 'Dice Control' Denounced
I see that there is a Wiki now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice_control
Chef - This looks like a good resource base of articles, any good? >>
http://www.dicecoach.com/articlearclist.asp
http://www.dicecoach.com/articlearclist.asp
All Over the Map
Judging by the brief sample of articles I read just within the last 15 minutes, I feel indifferent about the resource list. Seems like a cross between "inspirational material" and marketing outreach for the dice classes...not that there's anything wrong with drumming up business.
I'll be the first to admit that my opinion is probably worth about as much as a $1 bet on the Horn to the authors of those articles. Hell, I hit a wall of frustration and stale results a few years back, but worked through things (mainly due to building a freaking dice table upstairs) and am enjoying damn near every outing. I'm a DIY guy whose interest in the craft was piqued by a practitioner on a riverboat a decade or so ago and have taken matters into my own hands more or less since then, so I can't attest much to the worth of classes, private coaches, or message board subscriptions.
But like FLASH and sucker alluded to, one can spend months figuring out if all this mess is worth it or not...or spend years to become consistently profitable. Sorry for being tangential...best of luck :joker:
Judging by the brief sample of articles I read just within the last 15 minutes, I feel indifferent about the resource list. Seems like a cross between "inspirational material" and marketing outreach for the dice classes...not that there's anything wrong with drumming up business.
I'll be the first to admit that my opinion is probably worth about as much as a $1 bet on the Horn to the authors of those articles. Hell, I hit a wall of frustration and stale results a few years back, but worked through things (mainly due to building a freaking dice table upstairs) and am enjoying damn near every outing. I'm a DIY guy whose interest in the craft was piqued by a practitioner on a riverboat a decade or so ago and have taken matters into my own hands more or less since then, so I can't attest much to the worth of classes, private coaches, or message board subscriptions.
But like FLASH and sucker alluded to, one can spend months figuring out if all this mess is worth it or not...or spend years to become consistently profitable. Sorry for being tangential...best of luck :joker:
Learning Process for Dice Control / Setting...A Personal Journey
My Thoughts on dice control and learning to changes the 1.4% vig in craps has just begun. Or shall I say I am now in my second month of home practice and minimal casino play (once a week). I am not one to lay out my money on a whim without intense research as to my expected results...I like to win.
I live in Vegas so I have access to all the craps tables the city has to offer. I have successfully played blackjack for over 30 years, but that is another discussion. During the past 30 some years I have also looked at other games from time to time to see if and how to beat them.
So, I looked online for sources of dice control...wow have the controversies of winning at craps escalated, as has the level of educational literature on the subject.
Excellent references to start with...
YouTube search for dice setting or dice control helped...with videos by Golden Touch Craps (GTC), and Beau Parker the Dice Coach. These are excellent views and reads at their web site.
Addition Reading:
(available at Gamblers Book Club (online and located here in Las Vegas)
Casino Craps by Frank Scoblete
Wong on Dice by Stanford Wong
PARR by Jerry L. Patterson
Also available are various courses these authors offer.
I started my six month journey of throwing the dice...the recommended amount of time by most authors and instruction to know if you have what is takes. So Over the X-mas holiday I built a practice rig as I saw On YouTube, some casino dice and a pad of paper.
I started recording my throws as suggested. Each session of throws being 72 or more throws. I have kept track of every throw. The literature says practice daily so being who I am I do. It is now February 13th, 2011 and I began tossing dice on January 5th, 2011. Over 6000 tosses to date, and a SRR for those throws of overall 6000+ tosses of 1:6.19. Just a tad better than random in this same sample. But for my last 1000 tosses a SRR of 1:6.94, definitely better than merely random.
My once a week casino visits are having mixed results, but that is another story.
If anyone is interested I will keep this discussion open...but either way, for the next six months I will be throwing daily.,
My Thoughts on dice control and learning to changes the 1.4% vig in craps has just begun. Or shall I say I am now in my second month of home practice and minimal casino play (once a week). I am not one to lay out my money on a whim without intense research as to my expected results...I like to win.
I live in Vegas so I have access to all the craps tables the city has to offer. I have successfully played blackjack for over 30 years, but that is another discussion. During the past 30 some years I have also looked at other games from time to time to see if and how to beat them.
So, I looked online for sources of dice control...wow have the controversies of winning at craps escalated, as has the level of educational literature on the subject.
Excellent references to start with...
YouTube search for dice setting or dice control helped...with videos by Golden Touch Craps (GTC), and Beau Parker the Dice Coach. These are excellent views and reads at their web site.
Addition Reading:
(available at Gamblers Book Club (online and located here in Las Vegas)
Casino Craps by Frank Scoblete
Wong on Dice by Stanford Wong
PARR by Jerry L. Patterson
Also available are various courses these authors offer.
I started my six month journey of throwing the dice...the recommended amount of time by most authors and instruction to know if you have what is takes. So Over the X-mas holiday I built a practice rig as I saw On YouTube, some casino dice and a pad of paper.
I started recording my throws as suggested. Each session of throws being 72 or more throws. I have kept track of every throw. The literature says practice daily so being who I am I do. It is now February 13th, 2011 and I began tossing dice on January 5th, 2011. Over 6000 tosses to date, and a SRR for those throws of overall 6000+ tosses of 1:6.19. Just a tad better than random in this same sample. But for my last 1000 tosses a SRR of 1:6.94, definitely better than merely random.
My once a week casino visits are having mixed results, but that is another story.
If anyone is interested I will keep this discussion open...but either way, for the next six months I will be throwing daily.,
Even if you can beat the game - you beat it at home. Who will say that you can beat the game in casino ? On a table with different walls, different heights, chips laying around ..
From a physical standpoint, moment of inertia is isotropic for cubes, and thus keeping the dices spin around their axis is far from stable. I woudn't even try...
From a physical standpoint, moment of inertia is isotropic for cubes, and thus keeping the dices spin around their axis is far from stable. I woudn't even try...