What's my RoR?

#1
Hey everyone, so I've been grinding it out at the black tables for the past few months and I've just hit the 210 hours. I initially started with a 10k bankroll and I'm at 28k as of now. In that time, I've made $15,700. I've been using the zen count in 8 deck shoes, AC rules, 85% penetration with wonging in and out using a 1-10 spread. If anybody can sim me my RoR, it would be greatly appreciated.



Bankroll = $25,000.00
Advantage per TC/ Fully Kelly/ 64% Kelly/ Actual
TC 0 --> -0.04% -$11.00 -$7.04 $25.00
TC 1 --> -0.01% -$2.50 -$1.60 $25.00
TC 2 --> 0.30% $75.00 $48.00 $50.00
TC 3 --> 0.61% $152.50 $97.60 $100.00
TC 4 --> 0.93% $232.50 $148.80 $150.00
TC 5 --> 1.22% $305.00 $195.20 $200.00
TC 6 --> 1.58% $395.00 $252.80 $250.00
 

Hogg

New Member
#4
Cant go wrong with that. But i would change the tc 5 and 6 to

tc 1 or less = $25
tc 2 = $50
tc 3 = $100
tc 4 = $150
tc 5 = $300
tc 6 = $600

On multiple spots
 

matt21

Well-Known Member
#5
sounds like you are having a great run! and 85% pen! wow! :grin:

can i ask you: did you start with $25 units? or did you use $10 units when you had a $10k BR?
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#6
With a 1120-unit bankroll your RoR is less than 1%. Between your nice bankroll and your Wonging you are playing nice and safe. It also helps that you've been pretty lucky so far. With your original $10k bankroll your RoR was probably around 15%. The fact that you've been winning about double your EV so far has given your bankroll the boost it needed to stay alive. You're in good shape now.

-Sonny-
 
#8
Sonny said:
With a 1120-unit bankroll your RoR is less than 1%. Between your nice bankroll and your Wonging you are playing nice and safe. It also helps that you've been pretty lucky so far. With your original $10k bankroll your RoR was probably around 15%. The fact that you've been winning about double your EV so far has given your bankroll the boost it needed to stay alive. You're in good shape now.

-Sonny-
Thanks sonny, I was thinking it should be around 1% but less than 1% is great news.
 
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rukus

Well-Known Member
#9
dough_boi said:
Thanks sonny, I was thinking it should be around 1% but less than 1% is great news.
just FYI, in your spreadsheet, i see you are sizing you bets based purely on %advantage at each TC. you need to divide by variance as well.

and what made you choose 64% kelly as opposed to 60% or 66.66% or 70%? just curious on that one.
 

rukus

Well-Known Member
#11
dough_boi said:
Well to factor in variance, that's why i chose to go 64% kelly and not full kelly. The reason I chose 64% is because I get close to 100 max bets.
no, the kelly formula for bet sizing is %advantage*kellyBank/variance
 
#12
rukus said:
no, the kelly formula for bet sizing is %advantage*kellyBank/variance
woah, i dunno why you're being anal about this. From gamemaster, I've read that to account for variance multiply by 76% and I'm using 64% so I believe I was playing on the safe side already. As for your formula, I've read that variance for blackjack is about 1.2 or about 83% of your bankroll*advantage. Again, I'm betting below that amount so my betting schedule looks fine to me. I was asking about my RoR not the efficiency of my betting schedule.
 

rukus

Well-Known Member
#13
dough_boi said:
woah, i dunno why you're being anal about this. From gamemaster, I've read that to account for variance multiply by 76% and I'm using 64% so I believe I was playing on the safe side already. As for your formula, I've read that variance for blackjack is about 1.2 or about 83% of your bankroll*advantage. Again, I'm betting below that amount so my betting schedule looks fine to me. I was asking about my RoR not the efficiency of my betting schedule.
Not trying to be anal, trying to clarify your misunderstanding. When someone says they bet full kelly, they bet 100%*adv*br/var. To reduce ror from standard fixed kelly ror (13.5%), they then bet a fraction of that equation.

Including variance in your equation is like multiplying your "kelly bet" by about 80%. So you multiplying by 64% is not that far off from full kelly betting and what most would consider a high ROR.

if you think you ROR is a separate beast from bet schedule you are again misunderstood, they are entirely linked.

Take it or leave it, I'm not trying to be anal, but what I'm saying DOES affect your ROR. Ill feel free to add you to my "do not help" list in the future if you want.

Good luck in the future,
Rukus
 
#14
rukus said:
Not trying to be anal, trying to clarify your misunderstanding. When someone says they bet full kelly, they bet 100%*adv*br/var. To reduce ror from standard fixed kelly ror (13.5%), they then bet a fraction of that equation.

Including variance in your equation is like multiplying your "kelly bet" by about 80%. So you multiplying by 64% is not that far off from full kelly betting and what most would consider a high ROR.

if you think you ROR is a separate beast from bet schedule you are again misunderstood, they are entirely linked.

Take it or leave it, I'm not trying to be anal, but what I'm saying DOES affect your ROR. Ill feel free to add you to my "do not help" list in the future if you want.

Good luck in the future,
Rukus
Thanks for the good wishes Rukus. I'm not sure how you misunderstood that I think my RoR and bet schedule are not linked as I've posted the schedule in my first post after asking what my RoR is.

You are right about the Kelly formula but I was just stating that I did account for variance. If you want to get technical I'm betting about 75% kelly. This doesn't change my bet schedule 1 bit though, just a different %.

Although I wasn't able to get an exact figure, since Sonny says about 1%, that is a sufficient answer to satisfy my curiosity.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#15
dough_boi said:
I've read that to account for variance multiply by 76% and I'm using 64% so I believe I was playing on the safe side already. As for your formula, I've read that variance for blackjack is about 1.2 or about 83% of your bankroll*advantage. Again, I'm betting below that amount so my betting schedule looks fine to me. I was asking about my RoR not the efficiency of my betting schedule.
I can't believe gamemaster said variance is 1.2. Maybe you are rounding up SD?

The 76% comes from, say, a typical BJ game has SD of 1.15 units. Square that you get 1.3225. 1/1.3225=0.756 or 76%.

Let's call it 0.75 here. Rukus is saying cell C6 should be $30*.75 or $22.5. So your actual $20 bet is "technically" 89% of full-kelly, nowhere near 75% as you seem to think.

In your $15K schedule your TC+2 bet is almost 1.5 times Kelly so you are not betting below that amount. Or even at TC+3. Chances are if you bet to that schedule when you had $15 K your ROR was higher than at $10K schedule.

But, like you say, "all" it changes is the %age of Kelly, and your bet spread is what it is.

The glaring deficiency is that you ask your ROR to be calculated but you never mention the frequencies that the TC's you bet at will occur.

Maybe Sonny assumed you never play a hand at TC-1. Is that what you do?

Are you using 1-hand bets or the spread to 2 hands schedule?

But, like you say, although Sonny maybe had to assume a few things, like Spock, I'd take his guess any day lol. Are you not the least bit interested in what Sonny did assume in arriving at his conlusion and what he did to arrive at that? I confess I am. Just because I would be mostly clueless how to proceed to answer your orig ROR question.

So, while I plead guilty to being anal in pointing out your entire Column C is simply, how can I put it, "wrong" comes to mind, I am also interested in what I might call an "anal" obsession with this max bet=1% stuff. What's that about anyway? A back-counter might have a min bet of 1% roll, etc. Would you always have a max bet of 1% roll no matter how you'd choose to play that game, play-all, backcounting, wonging-out, etc?

If you were willing to play with 15% ROR originally with $10K roll, why are you unwilling now to play with that same risk? What risk would you be willing to play at going forward amd why not choose to bet in a way that would be that risk?

Maybe it's time, with $28K roll, to toy with the idea of investing $100 in software just to take any guess work out of the equation for now and evermore?

From one OCD to another, good luck :grin:
 
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