What's the deal with the automatic shufflers?

[tfg]

Not the continuous ones but the ones that are used when they alternate decks? I swear I've been playing for years at my local casino and then I go out to Vegas and it's like I can't win a hand. I don't think it can be a coincedence that all of my losing sessions while I've been playing have been on those. It's either that or I've hit one of the worst luck streaks I've ever seen. I mean I got wiped out practically just flat betting at a $5 table. It's like I'm playing carnival games out here. Which one property should just call one of their games. I recommend totally against wagering any money even just to kill time and have beers at this place. It's on LV blvd but way way south. Get a load of these rules.
6 deck probably 2 decks cut off
H soft 17
No surrender or split aces
And no peek on 10's!! I didn't even know this was in the US!
This is horrible for the gambling capital

 

[Sucker]

I don't think it can be a coincedence that all of my losing sessions while I've been playing have been on those.

Yes, it IS coincidence.

Get a load of these rules.
6 deck probably 2 decks cut off
H soft 17
No surrender or split aces
And no peek on 10's!! I didn't even know this was in the US!
This is horrible for the gambling capital

Sounds like you're talking about the South Point.

1) More & more properties are eliminating the surrender rule because they believe that the ploppies don't play incorrect surrender strategies often enough to make up for the people who use it wisely.
2) I believe you meant to say no re-split aces. This is also a rather common rule.
3) Although they don't peek under the 10's, if it turns out that they DO have a BJ, you only lose your original bet; so it works out the exact same as if they DID peek. Until the "peeker" was invented, this was very common.

If you think that THIS place has horrible rules, try going into the Imperial Palace, where a blackjack pays 6:5, even on the SHOE games!

But I will agree with you that the gaming capital of the world HAS degenerated into almost a carnival atmosphere. Up to about 20 years ago gambling had always been considered a "recession-proof" industry. That's no longer true, and they have only themselves to blame!

 

[Sharky]

in theory (mathematically) you are correct there is no difference between hand and ASM's.

In practice, however, IMO - particularly with new decks - I have experienced very high (and low) counts with hand shuffling vs. ASM. Even though they 'wash' the cards some lazy dealers who are not very adept at shuffling results in the hi/lo cards clumping whereas ASM shuffle the piss out of them. :laugh:

 

[blackchipjim]

Asms vs hand shuffle

I know this is not really the place for this thread but heck. The main purpose of the asms is to thwart shuffle trackers and to speed the game up. I actually had the same op when I first played against them then it all panned out. You play a game with good rules the asm shoes don't mean squat in regards to advantage. The shuffle tracker is the only one it should effect.

 

[tfg]

in theory (mathematically) you are correct there is no difference between hand and ASM's.

In practice, however, IMO - particularly with new decks - I have experienced very high (and low) counts with hand shuffling vs. ASM. Even though they 'wash' the cards some lazy dealers who are not very adept at shuffling results in the hi/lo cards clumping whereas ASM shuffle the piss out of them. :laugh:

It just seems that it's impossible to get any kind of streak going while playing on those tables and the cards are really randomized. It almost feels like you're playing on a CSM machine.

 

[fredperson]

ASMs

The system I use depends on the occurance of streaks.
I have never had a winning session on a csm or asm table.

 

[blackchipjim]

asms

I understand what some players experience with asms especially the non streakiness. I would like to term that deck bias for technicality sake. Yes a dealer may cause such conditions by poor shuffling technique but it is just an oppinion. Most of the more experienced members know better and don't seriously entertain such theories. My success with the machines is getting better every session only because I'm getting better at reading the shoe and leaving when I'm suppose to.

 

[tfg]

I understand what some players experience with asms especially the non streakiness. I would like to term that deck bias for technicality sake. Yes a dealer may cause such conditions by poor shuffling technique but it is just an oppinion. Most of the more experienced members know better and don't seriously entertain such theories. My success with the machines is getting better every session only because I'm getting better at reading the shoe and leaving when I'm suppose to.

I don't know. It could just be such a small sample but I've played many, many hours at my local casino that is hand shuffled and even when flat betting with occasional raises, I've been able to come away with some money or at least get a few hours of playing and be up or down some.

Every time I sit at one of these ASM tables, I don't think I've ever won more than like 3 or 4 hands in a row, ever and it seems like it's just consistently after the first 4 or 5 hands I'm already down. When I went down to the MGM where they hand shuffle and I seem to at least win some hands. Like I said this could be just such a small sample but this isn't the only trip that I've noticed this.

 

[tfg]

Yes, it IS coincidence.




Sounds like you're talking about the South Point.

1) More & more properties are eliminating the surrender rule because they believe that the ploppies don't play incorrect surrender strategies often enough to make up for the people who use it wisely.
2) I believe you meant to say no re-split aces. This is also a rather common rule.
3) Although they don't peek under the 10's, if it turns out that they DO have a BJ, you only lose your original bet; so it works out the exact same as if they DID peek. Until the "peeker" was invented, this was very common.

If you think that THIS place has horrible rules, try going into the Imperial Palace, where a blackjack pays 6:5, even on the SHOE games!

But I will agree with you that the gaming capital of the world HAS degenerated into almost a carnival atmosphere. Up to about 20 years ago gambling had always been considered a "recession-proof" industry. That's no longer true, and they have only themselves to blame!

Yes, the South Point is a fine hotel with a great value for cleanliness to price ratio and good food but the games are a hot pile of garbage. Even the craps is only double odds. You would think they would have some better rules for a place that's that far off the strip.

The rule calculator says that the no peek adds like .10% HE. That would put their 6 deck game at close to .80%! :yikes:

I mostly agree with you that they are to blame but it's hard to determine who is the real problem with this catch-22 situation. People still play these games, or the places that offer them. It's just unbelieveable how greedy these places are. Raking in billions every year and the pay the dealers crap and leaving it up to the people that a gamnling to tip, who you're already ripping off from the shitty games!

 

[shadroch]

Yes, the South Point is a fine hotel with a great value for cleanliness to price ratio and good food but the games are a hot pile of garbage. Even the craps is only double odds. You would think they would have some better rules for a place that's that far off the strip.

The rule calculator says that the no peek adds like .10% HE. That would put their 6 deck game at close to .80%! :yikes:

I mostly agree with you that they are to blame but it's hard to determine who is the real problem with this catch-22 situation. People still play these games, or the places that offer them. It's just unbelieveable how greedy these places are. Raking in billions every year and the pay the dealers crap and leaving it up to the people that a gamnling to tip, who you're already ripping off from the shitty games!

You are thinking like a tourist. SP draws its players from the locals in the neighborhood and as such has little competition. It attracts people with its food and events and those people play inferior games because they are already there. It doesn't need to attract people from the strip.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

You are thinking like a tourist. SP draws its players from the locals in the neighborhood and as such has little competition. It attracts people with its food and events and those people play inferior games because they are already there. It doesn't need to attract people from the strip.

When I was last at SP, it was quite playable, as well as decent 24-hour food. They tossed me out, long after I had my fun and my dinner though. The number of tables makes DD table-hopping practicable.

The American no-hold-card rule actually helps the player with the house edge, by a very small amount. The reason is that a dealer natural consumes two high cards, lowering the count, and not dealing out the rest of the hand conserves cards in a low count and increases the likelihood of the players seeing an extra low-count round. It's not enough to make much of a difference.

 

[creeping panther]

Tfg

Not the continuous ones but the ones that are used when they alternate decks? I swear I've been playing for years at my local casino and then I go out to Vegas and it's like I can't win a hand. I don't think it can be a coincedence that all of my losing sessions while I've been playing have been on those. It's either that or I've hit one of the worst luck streaks I've ever seen. I mean I got wiped out practically just flat betting at a $5 table. It's like I'm playing carnival games out here. Which one property should just call one of their games. I recommend totally against wagering any money even just to kill time and have beers at this place. It's on LV blvd but way way south. Get a load of these rules.
6 deck probably 2 decks cut off
H soft 17
No surrender or split aces
And no peek on 10's!! I didn't even know this was in the US!
This is horrible for the gambling capital

"Gambling capital", hardly.:laugh:

CP

 

[Jozsef]

I know this is not really the place for this thread but heck. The main purpose of the asms is to thwart shuffle trackers and to speed the game up. I actually had the same op when I first played against them then it all panned out. You play a game with good rules the asm shoes don't mean squat in regards to advantage. The shuffle tracker is the only one it should effect.

this has been my experience as well

 

[creeping panther]

Asm

I know this is not really the place for this thread but heck. The main purpose of the asms is to thwart shuffle trackers and to speed the game up. I actually had the same op when I first played against them then it all panned out. You play a game with good rules the asm shoes don't mean squat in regards to advantage. The shuffle tracker is the only one it should effect.

Ya, and that is one hell of an effect!!

Many casinos I play at have dumped ASM's due to cost and breakdown rate and last but not least, player wishes. Once you go back to hand shuffle it depends on the shuffle they use and plugging as to using hand shuffle to an advantage,,,,no matter I will take a hand shuffle every time.

Dig it

CP

 

[tfg]

Yeah I think it greatly eliminates the times you get on of those shoes where the dealer just can't make a hand and is busting regularly. It's just a steady decrease of your money for a recreational player rather than the swings up and down. At least this has been my experience. Unfortunatly I won't get to increase the sample size as I will not be playing the asm's any longer.

 

[creeping panther]

Asm

Yeah I think it greatly eliminates the times you get on of those shoes where the dealer just can't make a hand and is busting regularly. It's just a steady decrease of your money for a recreational player rather than the swings up and down. At least this has been my experience. Unfortunatly I won't get to increase the sample size as I will not be playing the asm's any longer.

The most profitable table I was ever on was an asm table where the dealer busted at a 75% rate for 4 and a half hours until the table was closed prematurely. :grin:

Well the 2nd most profitable.

CP

 

[metronome]

Asm

Since 2004 (+,-), when ASMs started inflitrating Shreveport/Bossier City, my wife and i have had the same "return" on ASM games compared to hand dealt.
Then about 2007 0r '08 they started disappearing. Reason ?? : to many breakdowns and to much money spent on lease payments for the damn things. They DID want to speed up the game, ploppie factor, but it broke down, so we have to go back to old fashioned way. Source: dealers that we asked.
That IS my take AND your mileage WILL vary.:laugh::whip:

 

[blackchipjim]

Playability

I agree that the hand dealt shoes are better to play against for reasons unmentioned. Is there a difference between asms and hand shuffled shoes? The answer is No, because all things considered it is the same. One difference that alot of arguements leave out is that you have two different shoes one in and one playing while the other is shuffled in the machine. I have left one colored deck over the other because the one was neutral in counts and the other high. So go ahead now and slam me for the last statement I deserve it.:laugh:

 

[21gunsalute]

I agree that the hand dealt shoes are better to play against for reasons unmentioned. Is there a difference between asms and hand shuffled shoes? The answer is No, because all things considered it is the same. One difference that alot of arguements leave out is that you have two different shoes one in and one playing while the other is shuffled in the machine. I have left one colored deck over the other because the one was neutral in counts and the other high. So go ahead now and slam me for the last statement I deserve it.:laugh:

Which would suggest that the cards aren't shuffled very well (if at all), so all things considered, they're not the same. The main problem with ASMs is you never know where to cut. It seems like it's hard to stay even or make a small profit against them. You either make a killing or get killed, and usually it seems to be the later. That being said I'm going to give them another try tonight.

 

[bigplayer]

Not the continuous ones but the ones that are used when they alternate decks? I swear I've been playing for years at my local casino and then I go out to Vegas and it's like I can't win a hand. I don't think it can be a coincedence that all of my losing sessions while I've been playing have been on those. It's either that or I've hit one of the worst luck streaks I've ever seen. I mean I got wiped out practically just flat betting at a $5 table. It's like I'm playing carnival games out here. Which one property should just call one of their games. I recommend totally against wagering any money even just to kill time and have beers at this place. It's on LV blvd but way way south. Get a load of these rules.
6 deck probably 2 decks cut off
H soft 17
No surrender or split aces
And no peek on 10's!! I didn't even know this was in the US!
This is horrible for the gambling capital

You should love the auto shufflers...unless you are planning to shuffle track. These things assure an honest shuffle and are quick. What more would a straight counter want. Unfortunately it also allows casinos with shallow penetration to get the same rate of hands per hour as they would with a hand shuffled game with deeper penetration.