Which system?

#1
Alright at the casino I play at I usually sit down at the 6-deck shoes. The dealers hit soft 17's and the penetration is fair to good. I am a beginner, so which system should I start with and which should I then graduate to? There is another casino nearby that does NOT hit soft 17's, which system(s) would I employ there? And with the systems that you suggest, are there different basic strategy cards I need to memorize rather than the common ones you see everywhere? And is studying the Illustrious 18 a good decision no matter what?

Sorry about all the questions, but thanks in advance for any help.

EDIT: Oh, and systems I have looked into are K-O, then graduating to either UBZII or brhII. Are these effective in my settings? And where can I find material to supplement these systems?
 
#2
I like KO

It's easy to learn and you don't have to keep too much in your head at the same time. You can look for the method with the best betting correlation or playing efficiency or whatever, but for me (and I'm a rare player) ease of use is a very important consideration.
 
#4
#5
Yea, I've looked at that chart and made a list of 7 of those that seem appropriate, it's still too general though. And what indices do I study for KO and for UBZII or brhII?
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#6
Pavel said:
Yes, true, but is it the most effective for the game I'm playing?
By any measure, the difference between all the different systems is minor compared with how effectively you can execute the strategy. It's better to use a crappy counting system like Ace-Five and do it well than to use a level 3 system with side counts where you lose the count half the time.

Hi-Lo, K-O, or Red 7 is good enough for anything you want to do right now. Learn the systems well. When you've learned them well, set the bar higher and learn them better. Learn them so well that you can set your alarm for 3:30 am, wake up, and immediately count down 2 decks perfectly and make basic strategy adjustments without thinking - while your alarm is blaring.

If you're making errors in basic strategy or in counting, you will obliterate any tiny advantage you get from using a more complex counting strategy.

Pavel said:
There is another casino nearby that does NOT hit soft 17's, which system(s) would I employ there?
Whichever one you're most comfortable with. The biggest difference is that basic strategy is different for H17 and S17 - and so are all the indices for strategy changes.

If, right now, you are scratching your head wondering what's different between H17 and S17, I can guarantee you it doesn't matter which counting strategy you use. You're asking which car has less wind resistance when you're choosing between a Dodge Caravan and a Ford Pinto. It really, really doesn't matter. Find a sports car - any sports car - with a 400 horsepower engine, learn to drive it well, and worry about wind resistance later.
 
#7
Ok thanks, now where can I find indices to study that will help my game besides just basic strategy cards you see everywhere?
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#9
Pavel said:
Ok thanks, now where can I find indices to study that will help my game besides just basic strategy cards you see everywhere?
The best basic strategy generator is right on this site. :grin:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php

As far as strategy change indices, you should look up "the Illustrious 18". It's important to note that there's no set 18 - it changes from site to site and from person to person, depending on what bet distribution they use.

For instance, someone who leaves the table at negative counts never gains anything from switching hard 13 v. dealer 3 from stand to hit at TC -2. On the other hand, someone who's betting 20 units at TC +5 cares more about standing on hard 16 v. dealer 9 than someone who's only betting 4 units at TC +5. You will have a different Illustrious 18 if you're betting (TC +1, 1 unit; TC +2, 2 units; TC +3; 4 units; TC +4; 8 units) than if you're betting (TC +1, 1 unit; TC +2, 2 unit; TC +3; 3 units; TC +4; 8 units).

Google "Illustrious 18" for several lists. Memorize only the ones that you have a decent shot of remembering. Remember, executing a strategy flawlessly is much more important than executing a flawless strategy.

I use my own calculator to get the "Callipygian 10" which I use for my own play, so I can't help you on which list is best. Insurance has always been #1 on every list I've seen, including my own, so I'll bet that if you only can remember one rule change, insurance would be best.
 
#10
Alright thanks a lot. I have another question: Say I was playing 2-deck and since with KO this means the IRC is -4, how do I calculate a true count, and how will I know when that true count is "good"?

Where can I get a calculator like you have to determine which list I need for strategy change? I have the Casino Verite software, but thats so damn buggy and really a hassle to use so I have never bothered to see if it has one.
 
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mk1

Active Member
#11
good thing about the KO count is that the running count is the true count. you do not need to convert the running count to true count. thats why i like the KO count less taxing on the brain. start betting higher at +1 for 2 decks.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#12
Pavel said:
Say I was playing 2-deck and since with KO this means the IRC is -4, how do I calculate a true count, and how will I know when that true count is "good".
You don't calculate a true count with unbalanced counts. That's the beauty of the system.

I'm going to use an 4-deck shoe as an example, because it avoids fractions. Because there are more low cards than high cards, at some point, you've seen 16 more low cards than high cards (if at no other time, when all the decks are dealt out you will have a running count of +16).

If one deck has gone by, then you would expect 4 extra low cards to come out naturally. So your true count is 12/3 = +4. What if two decks have gone by? You'd expect 8 extra low cards to come out naturally, so your true count is 8/2 = +4. What if three decks have gone by? You'd expect 12 extra low cards to come out naturally, so your true count is 4/1 = +4.

The beauty of an unbalanced system is that when the running count equals the "pivot" - (4 x decks) for K-O and (2 x decks) for Red 7 - that the true count is equal to the running count no matter how many decks remain. Generally, the running count is started negative so that the pivot numerically equals the true count for easy memorization of where the pivot is: -(4 x decks) + 4 for KO and -(2 x decks) + 2 for Red 7. This gives pivots of +4 and +2, respectively.

So what if the running count doesn't equal the pivot? Well, that's the drawback of unbalanced systems. As you move away from the pivot, the true count and running count start diverging. This is the price you pay for the simplicity of the unbalanced system. The count is most accurate when you're close to the pivot.

Generally, to minimize this limitation, you pick a system whose pivot is between +1 and +5. Now, your count is most accurate when the game is most "interesting" to you and where you're making most of your strategy decisions. You don't care if your running count is -8 and the true count is -4, but a true count of +2 is very interesting because that's where you first show an advantage over the house. Likewise, a true count of +4 is very interesting because that's where a lot of strategy changes are made and where big jumps in betting occur.

I have never used Red 7 or K-O, so if you want any further opinion, you should either read "Blackbelt in Blackjack" by Arnold Snyder (a big fan of Red 7) or "KO Blackjack", respectively. Or, ask some of the people on this board. There seem to be a lot of KO fans here.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#13
Pavel said:
Where can I get a calculator like you have to determine which list I need for strategy change?
I programmed my own, so I can't help you. Sorry.

If you're new to card counting, I'd recommend starting off by not making any strategy corrections at all. Most of the corrections are like the wind resistance on the Ford Pinto, anyway. The only one that I'd start with is insurance.
 
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