Ahead in session: Psychological issues

matt21 · Sep 1, 2008

Hi all
hope all your AP-BJ play is going well !

I have noticed something about my playing - basically a psychologial issue:

I am finding that whenever I am getting ahead in a session - let's say i am up 20, 30, or more units after an hour then I get this FEAR of losing my winnings for the session and am reluctant to keep playing. Instead i often stop, cash my chips and head to the next venue - overall this decreases my playing time since i can only hit a certain number of venues in my area.

On the flipside though, if i am down 30 units i have no problem just playing and playing for 3-4 hours - and often then end up with a small marginal loss for the session.

Has anyone else experienced this? Is there some way to overcome this mental attitude?

EasyRhino · Sep 1, 2008

Yup. But even more than that, I'm less likely to even begin sessions if I'm generally "ahead" than if I"m trying to dig myself out of a hole. You're correct, it tends to reduce playing time, and so has either no effect or a negative effect.

Unless you're betting enough and winning enough to where you're beginning to cause the pit some discomfort, there is no reason to quit while you're ahead. Feel free to keep winning.

The sensation does numb with time, usually when a 20-30 swing starts to feel like not a big deal.

blackjack avenger · Sep 1, 2008

Hours to Long Run

It's about hours played, not what you are up or down at any given point in time. So if you are losing time playing you are hurting yourself. The cost can be very high if you have high expenses involved with playing.

Now for camoflauge/longevity reasons there is nothing wrong with leaving if you have a big win/home run shoe. If losing one can usually stay a little longer; however, a massive loss in one shoe can also sometimes draw attention and it may be best to leave. These situations I am referring to are infrequent and not daily or weekly occurances.

Experience will help with these decisions.

creeping panther · Sep 1, 2008

Matt

Psychological issue play a big part in your AP experience, in many different ways. That one aspect alone, if not controlled, will make or break you.

In the situation you wrote about if it is a fine game and you are winning keep playing until your winnings begin to dissipate and you feel that you can no longer play a positive game. If you are up several hundred make sure that in that session you do not give all of it back. You can take a break for a snack, walk, find another table etc. This can get very complex and controversial and I do have my own formula that I use. Usually I can control a game and make it do what I desire but....then there are those other sessions.

The key word here is "Sessions" and 'Kontrol"

CP

sagefr0g · Sep 1, 2008

it's human nature circa ? billion years of evolution

matt21 said:

yes and no.
yes i've experienced all that and always do experience it.
no it can't be overcome. you will always have such a mental attitude unless you are a very rare individual (perhaps a sociopath or some such genetic strain). you might temporarily calm your self by rationaliztion but deeper issues will still rage on within your being.
our brains might not have evolved much since we carried a big club, dragged our women around by the hair and our biggest worry was getting eaten by a tiger. that being the case intellectual issues such as you describe are beyond our bodies emotional response and beyond the warfare continually raging in our minds. the issue may have possible health implications.
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=95048&postcount=10

question: are you a professional player? if not quiting when you are ahead at some goal level will not hurt your prospects much.
it would like you say just slow you down some.
check the link below: (and note the statement within "Obviously, if you play out the shoe or wait for the count to drop back before ending the session, you won't see any decrease.")
http://www.blackjackincolor.com/useless1.htm

matt21 · Sep 2, 2008

thank you for all your comments - very much appreciated!

i had been thinking along the line, that if the playing conditions have positive EV then the longer I play the better - and thus should not be concerned with session results. I think that is in line with all your comments so I thank you for clarifying this

RJMNYC · Sep 5, 2008

I have the same problem. That's why as soon as I win enough money, usually $100, I place my buy-in into my pocket. When I win the next $100, I place that into my pocket too. When I am satisfied with the amount I have won (and pocketed) I will play whatever is left on the table until I lose it or walk away from sheer exhaustion. If I am exhausted I will usually bet it all before walking away, most of the time I lose it, but the adrenalin rush is great.

Mimosine · Sep 5, 2008

you should stop playing a shoe and end your session for the following reasons:

•you are tired and getting sloppy
•emotionally you are out of control and not playing a strong game (i.e. too timid to ramp bets, or the other end of the spectrum - steaming/loss chasing)
•you have overstayed your welcome, be it 1 hour, be it being up 20 units, be it losing an excess amount - these are things that you should figure out BEFORE playing at a particular casino and a particular game.

in addition to that, so long as you are not getting heat, you should end your session on a NEGATIVE shoe. i.e. keep playing as long as you have an advantage, when you realize it is getting close to quitting time, wong out when the count tells you to and leave.

ihate17 · Sep 5, 2008

psychological is extremely important

I like to say that learning to count cards is the easiest part of learning to be a blackjack advantage player and that overcoming the psychological end is the hard part.
Your hang up is not a death sentence like the guy who steams 0r the guy who fails to spread but it can lead to playing very short sessions when you are up only to be followed by marathon sessions when you are down, which can have a detrimental effect on your lifetime win because marathon sessions may mean playing when tired or playing inferior games sometimes.

I remember a time more than 20 years ago, where another player got me so angry that I was going to show him something and I steamed, overbet and lost much bigger than I should have at the table.
Never underestimate the effect of the psychological.

ihate17

Diver · Sep 6, 2008

The last point gets to a key issue for me+

Mimosine said:

If you could keep playing as long as you can (effectively) without getting backed off, then sure you'd just keep at it. But my impression is that's rarely the case these days unless you have a marvelous act. If you're doing well, you'd better be sensitive to heat and winnings if you expect to play at that place any time soon. But assuming I'm comfortable with the above points, I'll sure try to hang in as long as possible. My usual experience (limited as it is) is that if I play for long (> 1 hour), I'll probably drop down at some point and have to re-build rather than just merrily rake it in. Then the issue becomes one of not staying so long that you're inviting scrutiny of your play. I have noticed there seems to be some tolerance for trying to recover if I've been up then down as long as I boogie when I regroup more or less where I was at the peak.

Future Pro · Sep 30, 2008

You can change your mindset

**********

sagefr0g said:

yes and no.
yes i've experienced all that and always do experience it.
no it can't be overcome. you will always have such a mental attitude unless you are a very rare individual (perhaps a sociopath or some such genetic strain).
**********

I disagree. You can change your mindset by changing your paradigm. It is not easy. I have played poker for years and had to overcome this same problem. When I first started playing, if I double or tripled up, I would then tighten up or even leave the table so "save my winnings". After reading a few books and participating in message boards such as this one I finally realized how much money I was costing myself. This practice gave me a lot of small wins, usually 2-3x my buy-in, but then losses of 3-5 buy ins on my bad days outweighed my winnings. If you're at a good table with players you cna beat, stay there until you can no longer play optimally. Same with BJ, if you are playing correctly and have a good count, keep on playing. I agree with the post below about ratholing your buy in and then some winnings when you're up. This is a nice way to assure yourself you don't lose when you're up as you work on your mental transition to be comfortable with the possibility of losing.

Future Pro · Sep 30, 2008

Great points

mimosine said:

you should stop playing a shoe and end your session for the following reasons:

•you are tired and getting sloppy
•emotionally you are out of control and not playing a strong game (i.e. Too timid to ramp bets, or the other end of the spectrum - steaming/loss chasing)
•you have overstayed your welcome, be it 1 hour, be it being up 20 units, be it losing an excess amount - these are things that you should figure out before playing at a particular casino and a particular game.

In addition to that, so long as you are not getting heat, you should end your session on a negative shoe. I.e. Keep playing as long as you have an advantage, when you realize it is getting close to quitting time, wong out when the count tells you to and leave.

qft

Future Pro · Sep 30, 2008

I agree that the psychological part is the hard part

ihate17 said:

i like to say that learning to count cards is the easiest part of learning to be a blackjack advantage player and that overcoming the psychological end is the hard part.
Your hang up is not a death sentence like the guy who steams 0r the guy who fails to spread but it can lead to playing very short sessions when you are up only to be followed by marathon sessions when you are down, which can have a detrimental effect on your lifetime win because marathon sessions may mean playing when tired or playing inferior games sometimes.

I remember a time more than 20 years ago, where another player got me so angry that i was going to show him something and i steamed, overbet and lost much bigger than i should have at the table.
Never underestimate the effect of the psychological.

Ihate17

qft

Ahead in session: Psychological issues

matt21

Well-Known Member

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member

blackjack avenger

Well-Known Member

creeping panther

Banned

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member

matt21

Well-Known Member

RJMNYC

Active Member

Mimosine

Well-Known Member

ihate17

Well-Known Member

Diver

Well-Known Member

Future Pro

Member

Future Pro

Member

Future Pro

Member