Finding Teammates

When people make teams, where do they go about findind teammates?

People who they see are obviously talented at counting in the casino? Friends who they teach? Through other gambling connections? All of these??

Thanks

I think "all of the above" is a good answer. There are many different types of blackjack teams and each requires different skills. Every team will be looking for a specific type of person. They may find that person at work, at school, at a blackjack gathering (BJ Ball, Green Chip party, Holloween Ball, etc.), in a casino, or even a family member. Al Fransceco found Ken Uston at a cocktail party (or so the story goes).

The most important factor will be finding someone smart who you can trust with your money. I have had good success training close friends and family members, but it can be very handy to find someone who already has experience. The specific requirements you are looking for will vary depending on the type of team you are forming.

-Sonny-

Dyepaintball12 said:

When people make teams, where do they go about findind teammates?

People who they see are obviously talented at counting in the casino? Friends who they teach? Through other gambling connections? All of these??

Thanks

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The other thing you have to consider ahead of time is what's going to happen if things go bad? Suppose one of your best friends or a relative cheats you out of $10K, after giving in to temptation or a bad habit?

Even worse, suppose you have a streak of terrible variance (and you will!) and your teammates think you have screwed them. Are you going to get stabbed? Maybe shot?

The type of team you form will depend on these and other questions. If you aren't sharing bankroll, just sharing backcounting info, taking turns as a BP, combined counting/tracking techniques etc., this eliminates a whole category of problems because you aren't handling each other's money. That way if you find out a guy is a screwup, you can just eliminate him from future missions with limited hard feelings.

Frankly I wouldn't want to share bankroll with people who are going to shoot me if they think I have ripped them off, nor with people who will interpret my unwillingness to hurt another as weakness and an invitation to rip me off. Also I'm assuming you're still an inexperienced player. You need a lot of experience with a few different solo techniques before you are ready for team play, and hopefully by that time you'll have your connections.

Automatic Monkey said:

You need a lot of experience with a few different solo techniques before you are ready for team play, and hopefully by that time you'll have your connections.

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You made some very good points, but the one above is my favorite. By the time someone is ready for team play they will have already networked with many other players. The decision then becomes a choice of who you want to play with and not where to find talented players.

-Sonny-

Automatic Monkey said:

Even worse, suppose you have a streak of terrible variance (and you will!) and your teammates think you have screwed them. Are you going to get stabbed? Maybe shot?

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Do you know anyone that has been shot or stabbed?!

avs21 said:

Do you know anyone that has been shot or stabbed?!

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Associated with blackjack, no, but I know people who would be very likely to act that way if they believed someone had cheated them. There are also people who definitely would rip off a team unless they had the fear of something unpleasant happening to them as a result. These concepts are two sides of the same coin- Machiavellian morality- and I would prefer playing BJ alone to having to play by those rules. This is why I suggest being careful to the extreme when sharing bankroll, but there are other forms of team play that don't require that.

So then back to the question of "where can we find a blackjack team to join"?
Do they advertise in the back of magazines? I never heard of any other than in the movies. I want to join a team.

newbie said:

So then back to the question of "where can we find a blackjack team to join"?

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This goes back to the answer above: once you have enough experience to be on a team you will have networked with some other APs. The best way is through some of the parties I mentioned. You will have to be very close friends with people before they trust you enough to be on their team. They will have to know that you are a trustworthy person, a skilled player, and a likeable guy. That sort of relationship takes time to build.

newbie said:

Do they advertise in the back of magazines?

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Nope. Blackjack teams are very secretive groups. They don’t want to be found. They are usually not looking for new players unless one of their members recommends someone and personally vouches for them. If they advertised in magazines they would get thousands of responses from unqualified players, which is annoying. It would be like the American Idol of APs! They wouldn’t get any responses from knowledgeable players because those players would not trust the people running the team. It has to be a situation of mutual respect.

A team will only work when everybody knows and trusts each other completely. That doesn’t happen when you assemble a bunch of strangers.

-Sonny-

Anyone have case law later than 2003?

First time here guys. Just looking for the latest info about what NJCC can and can't do. I'm in AC just about every day and different casinos employ various tactics. Max bet 50.00 in Harrah's, shuffle if bet is over 100.00 at Resorts, cut deck in half most others. You know the drill. What I'm really looking for is any rulings that are new since Campione or Huston or Grant. Can't seem to find any. I am entertaining the thought of bringing a discrimination suit against (Take your pick) in the hopes of making the industry either declare the game a game of skill (which they'll never do) or declare it an absolute game of chance in which everyone has the same odds of winning and losing. For the life of me, I can't believe that in this day and age and in this over- politically correct climate, big business will be allowed to discriminate against the little guy. Any new info or happenings in NJ will be greatly appreciated. Any lawyers in here with interest?? Thanks, Chuck.

chuck said:

First time here guys. Just looking for the latest info about what NJCC can and can't do. I'm in AC just about every day and different casinos employ various tactics. Max bet 50.00 in Harrah's, shuffle if bet is over 100.00 at Resorts, cut deck in half most others. You know the drill. What I'm really looking for is any rulings that are new since Campione or Huston or Grant. Can't seem to find any. I am entertaining the thought of bringing a discrimination suit against (Take your pick) in the hopes of making the industry either declare the game a game of skill (which they'll never do) or declare it an absolute game of chance in which everyone has the same odds of winning and losing. For the life of me, I can't believe that in this day and age and in this over- politically correct climate, big business will be allowed to discriminate against the little guy. Any new info or happenings in NJ will be greatly appreciated. Any lawyers in here with interest?? Thanks, Chuck.

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please don't take the question below in the wrong way. i don't mean it to be in anyway offensive or demeaning. just a question....:devil:

well gosh Chuck, what do you expect them to do just hand us the money?

welcome on board...
best regards,
mr fr0g

Why join a team? Why not just go in the casino in the middle of the night on a weekday, when the casino tables are empty, and then play 5 hands of blackjack against the one dealer. You can be your own team. You can count your own cards and not worry about the other team member making mistakes or being dishonest with your money. You can be your own team. What do you think of that idea?

newbie said:

Why join a team? Why not just go in the casino in the middle of the night on a weekday, when the casino tables are empty, and then play 5 hands of blackjack against the one dealer.

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Because playing 5 hands at the same table would not benefit you much. If you play 5 hands of $5 at the same table (which a casino will not let you do. They usually require 2*minimum for two hands and 3*minimum for more. Many will not even allow you to play as many as 5 hands) then you might as well play 1 hand of $25. You will earn the same amount of money either way. That is one of the reasons blackjack teams do not play at the same table.

There are several reasons to join a team. The joint bankroll will give you a higher betting range, the additional players will help to smooth out the variance as well as approach the long run much sooner, and there are many techniques that can only be used by teams. There are many more reasons that you will discover as you learn more about card counting.

I suggest reading Ken Uston’s Million Dollar Blackjack to get more information about different team methods as well as card counting in general. Don’t worry about team stuff until you have a better understanding of solo play.

-Sonny-

chuck said:

I am entertaining the thought of bringing a discrimination suit against (Take your pick) in the hopes of making the industry either declare the game a game of skill (which they'll never do) or declare it an absolute game of chance in which everyone has the same odds of winning and losing.

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Yes, blackjack is a game of skill. That has been common knowledge since the 60s. The reason blackjack has survived this long is because 99.99% of the players are unskilled. As long as the casino making enough money they will be happy. It is very easy for the casinos to make the game completely unbeatable. If they are helpless to protect their games then they will do just that. Why would you want to force them to do that?

My question to you is, why bother with a lawsuit? If you keep getting half-shoed or flat bet then you need better cover. I know people who bet more than that in AC and are welcome back anytime they want. Better yet, just travel to better games. To bring out a lawsuit will just make the casinos panic and ruin the game for the rest of us.

Anyone can learn to count cards, but it takes great skill to pull it off in a casino. That is part of the art of Advantage Play. That is what we all must learn.

-Sonny-

better cover/not an option

Sonny, You're right in everything you say. Problem is, I have been doing this on a nearly 5 day per week basis for 11 years. They all know me and I move around as much as possible. I even did the "middle of the night" thing for a while but there are other problems with that as well. I could write a book about all of the intangibles but unlike many others, I play blackjack fulltime, I don't tell others how they can play and win. As far as the intended litigation is concerned; If I can find the right attorney who can make enough noise, the result will be extremely beneficial to all card counters. The game will not be "ruin"[ed] for anyone. That's a promise. I have no intention of harming myself or others. Best of luck.

chuck said:

Sonny, You're right in everything you say. Problem is, I have been doing this on a nearly 5 day per week basis for 11 years. They all know me and I move around as much as possible. I even did the "middle of the night" thing for a while but there are other problems with that as well. I could write a book about all of the intangibles but unlike many others, I play blackjack fulltime, I don't tell others how they can play and win. As far as the intended litigation is concerned; If I can find the right attorney who can make enough noise, the result will be extremely beneficial to all card counters. The game will not be "ruin"[ed] for anyone. That's a promise. I have no intention of harming myself or others. Best of luck.

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I don't think suing the casinos can make it better for card counters. No matter what you try to do to the casino to get the rules/conditions to change, they could easily make all blackjack games unbeatable overnight.

chuck said:

Sonny, You're right in everything you say. Problem is, I have been doing this on a nearly 5 day per week basis for 11 years. They all know me and I move around as much as possible. I even did the "middle of the night" thing for a while but there are other problems with that as well. I could write a book about all of the intangibles but unlike many others, I play blackjack fulltime, I don't tell others how they can play and win. As far as the intended litigation is concerned; If I can find the right attorney who can make enough noise, the result will be extremely beneficial to all card counters. The game will not be "ruin"[ed] for anyone. That's a promise. I have no intention of harming myself or others. Best of luck.

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ok Chuck i think we all have to give you credit for that thought.
so what is your outline with respect to said 'noise' an attorney might make and how would it help?

best regards,
mr fr0g