Is shoes all there is?

Grisly Dreams

Well-Known Member
#1
Hello, all. I've been lurking for a while, and had a question.

I started learning a few months back. Started with Renzey's book, then Carlson's. I finally settled on learning Wong's Hi-Lo (just the Catch 20/Fab 4 for now), flipping through decks of cards and playing CVBJ.

Friday night, I went to a "casino night" thrown by some organization affiliated with my wife's work, getting my first live practice since a couple months earlier playing basic strategy against a CSM at Hollywood Park Casino (where the rules are not really blackjack at all).

They were dealing single deck, and with no heat, I was free to spread my bets with wild abandon. I nearly doubled my phony money in a couple hours, and won a TV with the raffle tickets purchased thereby.

Single deck is super fun, especially when nobody cares what you're betting. I felt like Ed Thorp or something.

Next morning, I fired up CVBJ and actually played double deck for once. Within a couple of hours of double deck, I had recouped days' worth of losses from six-deck shoes. The opportunities to make a move just come along a lot more frequently.

So, I think I like pitch games a lot more than shoes. As one might tell from my name, I'm okay not making much money doing this, because big spreads make me nervous anyway.

I'm wondering whether, since I just have more fun playing pitch games, I should ditch the Hi-Lo, and learn Hi-Opt I, before learning some more sophisticated count later on. I just don't know whether, in the modern era, there even ARE enough single- and double-deck games to even think of playing with a side count.
 

Nga1

New Member
#2
I live in vegas and haven't seen any single or double deck games that look good here. Single deck is without exception always a 6 to 5 game and all the double decks I've seen have 50% or less penetration. I'm new to card counting myself but have decided that around vegas I'm going to focus on shoe games.
 
#3
Grisly

Grisly Dreams said:
Hello, all. I've been lurking for a while, and had a question.

I started learning a few months back. Started with Renzey's book, then Carlson's. I finally settled on learning Wong's Hi-Lo (just the Catch 20/Fab 4 for now), flipping through decks of cards and playing CVBJ.

Friday night, I went to a "casino night" thrown by some organization affiliated with my wife's work, getting my first live practice since a couple months earlier playing basic strategy against a CSM at Hollywood Park Casino (where the rules are not really blackjack at all).

They were dealing single deck, and with no heat, I was free to spread my bets with wild abandon. I nearly doubled my phony money in a couple hours, and won a TV with the raffle tickets purchased thereby.

Single deck is super fun, especially when nobody cares what you're betting. I felt like Ed Thorp or something.

Next morning, I fired up CVBJ and actually played double deck for once. Within a couple of hours of double deck, I had recouped days' worth of losses from six-deck shoes. The opportunities to make a move just come along a lot more frequently.

So, I think I like pitch games a lot more than shoes. As one might tell from my name, I'm okay not making much money doing this, because big spreads make me nervous anyway.

I'm wondering whether, since I just have more fun playing pitch games, I should ditch the Hi-Lo, and learn Hi-Opt I, before learning some more sophisticated count later on. I just don't know whether, in the modern era, there even ARE enough single- and double-deck games to even think of playing with a side count.
Use Hi-LO, it is the choice of most. You make a mistake looking for a more complex count, you will find Hi-l-Lo in a 6d challenging enough and in a DD you can use a side count.

IMHO switching from HiLo to a more complex count is similar to Buying a new 09 VMAX with 174 RWHP and 112 torque and then putting a few thousand $ into it to boost it to 194 RWHP and then finding that you are having so many problems with it that after the modifications you never get to ride it much!!

CP
 

H Bomb

Active Member
#4
creeping panther said:
Use Hi-LO, it is the choice of most. You make a mistake looking for a more complex count, you will find Hi-l-Lo in a 6d challenging enough and in a DD you can use a side count.
How does Hi-Lo with side count in DD work? Hi-Lo is already ace-reckoning. You mean use Hi-Lo to make the bets and adjust it by the ace side count to improve playing decisions?
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#5
H Bomb said:
How does Hi-Lo with side count in DD work? Hi-Lo is already ace-reckoning. You mean use Hi-Lo to make the bets and adjust it by the ace side count to improve playing decisions?
Yes. Insurance decisions as well.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#6
creeping panther said:
Use Hi-LO, it is the choice of most. You make a mistake looking for a more complex count, you will find Hi-l-Lo in a 6d challenging enough and in a DD you can use a side count.

IMHO switching from HiLo to a more complex count is similar to Buying a new 09 VMAX with 174 RWHP and 112 torque and then putting a few thousand $ into it to boost it to 194 RWHP and then finding that you are having so many problems with it that after the modifications you never get to ride it much!!

CP
Yeah, I really wouldn't recommend anything more advanced than hi-lo to anyone other than a full-time pro who plays pitch games.
 

Pro21

Well-Known Member
#7
Nga1 said:
I live in vegas and haven't seen any single or double deck games that look good here. Single deck is without exception always a 6 to 5 game and all the double decks I've seen have 50% or less penetration. I'm new to card counting myself but have decided that around vegas I'm going to focus on shoe games.
There are some full pay single decks downtown like the 4 Queens, and up in Reno.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#8
Open your eyes

Nga1 said:
I live in vegas and haven't seen any single or double deck games that look good here. Single deck is without exception always a 6 to 5 game and all the double decks I've seen have 50% or less penetration. I'm new to card counting myself but have decided that around vegas I'm going to focus on shoe games.

I know it is hot outside in Vegas right now but you can find some excellent rules on DD games with about 65% pen at several MGM casinos if you can afford a $25 minimum.
You can find some normal rule DD games with more than 65% pen at quite a few local casinos.
You can find some good single deck games at a couple of downtown casinos.

ihate17
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#9
Nga1 said:
I live in vegas and haven't seen any single or double deck games that look good here. Single deck is without exception always a 6 to 5 game and all the double decks I've seen have 50% or less penetration. I'm new to card counting myself but have decided that around vegas I'm going to focus on shoe games.
I'd suggest you look harder. The games are out there.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#10
While it is true that a mediocre Double Deck game is generally superior
to a great shoe game, casino surveillance focuses on those "pitch games"

Most professional players avoid the better games for this reason.
 

H Bomb

Active Member
#11
moo321 said:
Yes. Insurance decisions as well.
I assume the only hands affected by the ace side count are:

1. Insurance: Adjusted RC = RC - (# of Aces Rich)
2. Double Down on 9 and 10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)
3. Double Down on 11: Adjusted RC = RC - (# of Aces Rich)
4. Split 10,10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)
5. Hit 16 vs. 10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)

Is this correct?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#13
Hi-Opt II Ace Adjusted Indices

H Bomb,

Your List:
  • 1. Insurance: Adjusted RC = RC - (# of Aces Rich)
  • 2. Double Down on 9 and 10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)
  • 3. Double Down on 11: Adjusted RC = RC - (# of Aces Rich)
  • 4. Split 10,10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)
  • 5. Hit 16 vs. 10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)

Commentary:

#1, #2, #3 all look good.

#4 is moot as no one in their right mind splits face cards.

#5 looks indefensible in every way that I have viewed it.

I cannot find sufficient rationale for concerning oneself
with Aces when facing a dealer's 10 holding a 16.
I could easily be mistaken in this case, but I doubt it .

There are many other hands where there are playing
decisions that are sensitive to Surplus / Deficit Aces.

Consider splits of 6's and 7's and 8's and 9's [even for NDAS].

Consider doubling hard 8's and 9's.

Consider hit/stand A7 vs. Ace.

 

H Bomb

Active Member
#14
FLASH1296 said:
H Bomb,

Your List:
  • 1. Insurance: Adjusted RC = RC - (# of Aces Rich)
  • 2. Double Down on 9 and 10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)
  • 3. Double Down on 11: Adjusted RC = RC - (# of Aces Rich)
  • 4. Split 10,10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)
  • 5. Hit 16 vs. 10: Adjusted RC = RC + (# of Aces Rich)

Commentary:

#1, #2, #3 all look good.

#4 is moot as no one in their right mind splits face cards.

#5 looks indefensible in every way that I have viewed it.

I cannot find sufficient rationale for concerning oneself
with Aces when facing a dealer's 10 holding a 16.
I could easily be mistaken in this case, but I doubt it .

There are many other hands where there are playing
decisions that are sensitive to Surplus / Deficit Aces.

Consider splits of 6's and 7's and 8's and 9's [even for NDAS].

Consider doubling hard 8's and 9's.

Consider hit/stand A7 vs. Ace.

Thanks for the input Flash. I was thinking only of the I18 since that's all the index plays I'm using right now. But if I expand my "arsenal" I'll definitely take into account your other plays.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#15
On Side Counted Aces

In a DD game, unlike a shoe game, the Playing Efficiency of the count is extremely important.

So important is it that if the rules are great (e.g. S17 DAS for a H.A. of .19%)
you can beat that game, if well dealt with a 3-1 spread IF you use Hi-Opt II or
A.O. II with a full raft of Basic Strategy Departure Indices.

On the other hand, a very good, deeply dealt shoe game can be beaten with
just Basic Strategy if the bet sizing is accurate and the spread is quasi-optimal.
 
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