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#1
September 30th, 2011, 05:23 AM
 blackjack avenger Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,435
Hail Mary Blackjack Bankroll Defined

Hail Mary is a Catholic prayer asking for the intercession of the Virgin Mary. From this we get the Hail Mary pass which is a desperation long pass at the end of a football game with little chance of success. Now let's try to define the Hail Mary bankroll in blackjack.

The term "little chance of success" seems very subjective. I think a more mathematical or objective definition is available.

Hail Mary Blackjack Bankroll Defined:
A bank being bet in such a way that in the long run will experience negative or no growth.

Examples:
Fixed bets betting 50% or higher ror.
or
Resizing bets betting 2 * Kelly or higher.

The above are formulas for bankroll disaster, for bankroll success one needs to bet far less.

Given the definition it seems the Hail Mary Bankroll is not a sound choice, in blackjack the game never ends!
__________________
Keys to Counting Success:
Mental toughness and discipline
Mastery of your count
Play quality games aggressively
Play 1,000 hours
Bet conservatively to last 1,000 hours

May your A get painted
#2
September 30th, 2011, 06:17 AM
 Coyote Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Midwest Posts: 262

I would lean more toward your second definition.
As an example: Extreamly overbetting during a high count at the end of a playing session in the hope of increasing your total win for that particular session. Much like the Hail Mary Pass in football trying to increase the score for that game.
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Life is short so hit it hard!!!!!
#3
September 30th, 2011, 08:40 AM
 Sucker Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 821

If one of my grandchildren had 3 days to live unless he had a certain operation, I would probably consider Hail Mary to be a VERY sound option.
#4
September 30th, 2011, 08:43 AM
 Sucker Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 821

On a more relevant tone, the Hail Mary strategy is an ESSENTIAL tool for successful TOURNAMENT play, whether it be BJ, poker, or whatever.

There are probably other times when it can be appropriate.
#5
September 30th, 2011, 09:08 AM
 kewljason Executive Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 2,158

Quote:
 Originally Posted by blackjack avenger Hail Mary Blackjack Bankroll Defined: A bank being bet in such a way that in the long run will experience negative or no growth. Examples: Fixed bets betting 50% or higher ror.
I just have never heard those definitions of the hail mary BR. Where is it from? Again, I was going strictly by the definition on wong's site which states 40-50 top wagers. 50 top wagers doesn't represent over 50% chance of failure, but it would be much too high for my liking. But then again kelly is much too high for me. Hell, 2% is unacceptable to me. I guess a non-replenishable BR tends to make one think a little differently.
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I measure the results of each session in EV rather than money actually won or lost. That way every session is a winning session and in the end the two will come back in line with each other.
#6
September 30th, 2011, 10:07 AM
 blackjack avenger Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,435
This Line, No Farther

Quote:
 Originally Posted by kewljason I just have never heard those definitions of the hail mary BR. Where is it from? Again, I was going strictly by the definition on wong's site which states 40-50 top wagers. 50 top wagers doesn't represent over 50% chance of failure, but it would be much too high for my liking. But then again kelly is much too high for me. Hell, 2% is unacceptable to me. I guess a non-replenishable BR tends to make one think a little differently.
50 top bets can be fine if you flat bet and only play very quality hands, so not necessarily Hail Mary.

Any bets just below the Hail Mary threshold is likely to succeed, though far from optimal. A clear line in the sand.
__________________
Keys to Counting Success:
Mental toughness and discipline
Mastery of your count
Play quality games aggressively
Play 1,000 hours
Bet conservatively to last 1,000 hours

May your A get painted
#7
September 30th, 2011, 11:33 AM
 kewljason Executive Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 2,158

Quote:
 Originally Posted by blackjack avenger 50 top bets can be fine if you flat bet
If you flat bet, how can they be top bets?

I am just failing to understand your reasoning here, avernger, and apparently you are getting frustrated trying to explain it to me, so I will not pursue it further.
__________________
I measure the results of each session in EV rather than money actually won or lost. That way every session is a winning session and in the end the two will come back in line with each other.
#8
September 30th, 2011, 12:19 PM
 Friendo Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 215
Don't re-size as your BR grows

I thought that the Hail Mary approach meant starting at some point above full Kelly, but not re-sizing your ramp upward as your bank grows.

Starting with a 50-max-bet bankroll and catching some positive variance, you could soon be at an 80-max-bet bankroll as long as you don't re-size bets.

This is essentially for those who want to ascend to a higher level of play and are willing to risk being out of action should they tap out. Once the higher level of play is attained, the betting becomes more conservative. To continue to place maximum bets at 1/50 of one's bankroll is suicidal.

My only problem with the Hail Mary bankroll is that the, say, 0.8 Kelly level you'll attain once you succeed is still too risky for my taste. You would have to have a dazzling run with a Hail Mary bankroll to go from 1.3 Kelly to 0.5 Kelly holding your bet ramp constant.

I know full well that underbetting is less profitable in the long run, but 0.2 - 0.4 Kelly feels about right to me.
#9
September 30th, 2011, 04:01 PM
 Severity8 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 85

This brings up a thread i was thinking about starting. I wanted to know what where the odds of success if you were rocking an undeveloped bank roll. I havn't done any math on it just ran off the idea that if you were playing your average 6decker S17 good pen the rule of thumb is you need 10K right, so what are the odds for the guy who saved up \$500 or a grand. For the guy playing \$500 thats 1/20th of \$10K or a 1 in 20 shot of success in a perfect world right or would it be worse? or am I in left field with the daisies lol? I wanted to see a graph of under betting hail marry style BR and its relation to it's chances of succeeding. Thoughts?
#10
September 30th, 2011, 04:38 PM
 tthree Banned Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,148

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Severity8 This brings up a thread i was thinking about starting. I wanted to know what where the odds of success if you were rocking an undeveloped bank roll. I havn't done any math on it just ran off the idea that if you were playing your average 6decker S17 good pen the rule of thumb is you need 10K right, so what are the odds for the guy who saved up \$500 or a grand. For the guy playing \$500 thats 1/20th of \$10K or a 1 in 20 shot of success in a perfect world right or would it be worse? or am I in left field with the daisies lol? I wanted to see a graph of under betting hail marry style BR and its relation to it's chances of succeeding. Thoughts?
It would be way worse. I have a 10K BR and took out \$800 to play with at \$10 and \$15 minimum games. The \$800 is now \$2500 in 36 hours of play but twice I would have busted out with only \$500. I bring 1K to 2K for each session. Buying in at small increments I've needed \$600 and \$800 to last until a good run that puts me ahead. Once I shaved some off my max bets so I had enough left to split a hand that would suck if I didn't. This is a tiny sampling so you can imagine how much worse it can get.

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