The perfect camouflage?

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#1
So, I'm at a local joint tonight. It was really crowded. Partly becuase it was a weekend, and partly because of Chinese New Year. Around 1AM, some breaks open up in tables, I find one, backcount, and then wong in when the count gets pretty good.

Four other people at the table. Two min-betting ploppy asian ladies, and two relative whales: one 60 yr old middle-easternish guy playing up to $100 a hand, and a 50-60 yr old asian guy, smoking some sort of godawful cigarette, and playing two hands of $200-$350 each. He's barber-poling blacks greens and reds. He's making some of the common mistakes, like standing on 12 vs 2 and surrendering a 14 vs 10. I don't pay much attention to him, as I had seen a bigger whale get butchered earlier in the day. Besides, I had my own play to pay attention to. I did notice that he was fishing in his wallet, pulling out blacks, and even a purple ($500) chip.

Next shoe, the count gets ridiculously high again. I notice that as I'm increasing my bets, he's shifting from greens to blacks, and I begin to pay him more attention. After the shuffle, he drops to playing two hands at $20 each. The count started to get very negative, and he dropped to only one hand at $10. Then he made a negative index play of hitting with a 12 vs a 4. And near the end of the shoe (count still negative), he took a bathroom break, which coincidentally ended when the shuffle was beginning.

Holy crap, this guy was good. And he had minimal or no cover. The only strategy he might have been employing was some limits on the amount he would increase or decrease bets per hand. But still, after the shuffle, he went from having $700 on the table, to $40. And later $10 or $20. A 70-1 spread seems pretty ballsy to me. Based off the chips he was pulling out of his ass, he wasn't betting too ridiculously relative to his payroll.

There was no heat.

I gotta say that the stereotype works. If I'm the casino, an older asian man is the second-to-last person I'll suspect of being a counter (the first is an older asian woman). And we made it through two very postive counts, and one very negative count, until I had confirmed it to own satisfaction.

I wanted to take the guy aside and give him a high-five or something, but that didn't seem like it would fly very well.

I learned a very valuable After School Special lesson from the affair: don't assume too much about people. Just becuase the previous 400 lived up to your preconceived notions, give the next person a chance to prove themself.
 

Claza

Active Member
#2
EasyRhino said:
So, I'm at a local joint tonight. It was really crowded. Partly becuase it was a weekend, and partly because of Chinese New Year. Around 1AM, some breaks open up in tables, I find one, backcount, and then wong in when the count gets pretty good.

Four other people at the table. Two min-betting ploppy asian ladies, and two relative whales: one 60 yr old middle-easternish guy playing up to $100 a hand, and a 50-60 yr old asian guy, smoking some sort of godawful cigarette, and playing two hands of $200-$350 each. He's barber-poling blacks greens and reds. He's making some of the common mistakes, like standing on 12 vs 2 and surrendering a 14 vs 10. I don't pay much attention to him, as I had seen a bigger whale get butchered earlier in the day. Besides, I had my own play to pay attention to. I did notice that he was fishing in his wallet, pulling out blacks, and even a purple ($500) chip.

Next shoe, the count gets ridiculously high again. I notice that as I'm increasing my bets, he's shifting from greens to blacks, and I begin to pay him more attention. After the shuffle, he drops to playing two hands at $20 each. The count started to get very negative, and he dropped to only one hand at $10. Then he made a negative index play of hitting with a 12 vs a 4. And near the end of the shoe (count still negative), he took a bathroom break, which coincidentally ended when the shuffle was beginning.

Holy crap, this guy was good. And he had minimal or no cover. The only strategy he might have been employing was some limits on the amount he would increase or decrease bets per hand. But still, after the shuffle, he went from having $700 on the table, to $40. And later $10 or $20. A 70-1 spread seems pretty ballsy to me. Based off the chips he was pulling out of his ass, he wasn't betting too ridiculously relative to his payroll.

There was no heat.

I gotta say that the stereotype works. If I'm the casino, an older asian man is the second-to-last person I'll suspect of being a counter (the first is an older asian woman). And we made it through two very postive counts, and one very negative count, until I had confirmed it to own satisfaction.

I wanted to take the guy aside and give him a high-five or something, but that didn't seem like it would fly very well.

I learned a very valuable After School Special lesson from the affair: don't assume too much about people. Just becuase the previous 400 lived up to your preconceived notions, give the next person a chance to prove themself.
Asian gamblers, both men and women, are a big percentage of the Casino table game playing community here in the Pacific Northwest.

It doesn't come as a surprise to me at all that some of them are good at counting cards. As for the wild spread, I'm sure they can get banned as quickly as anybody, when suspected of funny business.
 
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blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#3
camo

I try to look as old as possible I have entertained the idea of a cane in order to throw off suspicion. My index plays usually provide enough camo since I'm not a big bettor.I have raise a few eyebrows with some big bets for an old man. My wife blows my cover when she comes over, she looks alot younger. blkchpjim
 
#4
Yes the two plays you mention stand 12 vs. 2 and surrender 14 vs. 10 are pretty common index plays that both occur around the same count. He may have been using a balanced count with strong playing efficiency which caused you to not recognize them as the correct index plays.

Prejudices are everywhere and most people realize that there are some very smart Asians around, I've heard that being black is the best ethnic cover of all. Some people have a stereotype of blacks not having enough mental ability to be an AP, and while most don't, most whites and Asians don't have the ability either. And you can't tell which do and which don't by looking. The people who work for casinos are sort of lowbrow so I would expect them to have more of these prejudices than we do.

It's obvious that we are nearly all male here and while there are some extremely competent female AP's, boys and girls really are different and most women aren't willing to put up with the crap we do for the extremely risky way we make our money. It might just mean they are smarter. But we are more attuned to taking risks.
 

Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#5
Basic stragedy

Not hitting a 12 vs a 2 is not a horrible play, in a positive count it is an index play. Cost with a count of zero is 4%. If it where a play like not hitting a 16 vs a 7 I would write him off as an idiot cost of not doing it is around 12% and there is practically no time in todays game where standing is proper.
The two pages in playing blackjack as a business gains for drawing on hard totals of 12-16 did wonders for my game.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#6
I probably wasn't clear, but when I sat down at the table, the count was already high, so to me, he started out making what appeared to be basic strategy mistakes, but were actually positive count index plays. It was only when I saw his play vary in negative and neutral counts that I was totally convinced.

Forgot to mention two others things about his counterdom:

Pro: He didn't tip at all.
Con: He didn't order bottled water. :)
 

rogue1

Well-Known Member
#7
some good cover/camo

When backcounting or sitting at the table make sure you've got your John Deere hat on with a flannel shirt and suspenders-rub your chin now and then while watching/playing. A cane isn't a bad touch. Here in the Pacific Northwest they figure you for just another William Robert.
 

Preston

Well-Known Member
#8
EasyRhino said:
So, I'm at a local joint tonight. It was really ...

I gotta say that the stereotype works. If I'm the casino, an older asian man is the second-to-last person I'll suspect of being a counter (the first is an older asian woman). And we made it through two very postive counts, and one very negative count, until I had confirmed it to own satisfaction.

themself.
Question is.. Did he catch onto you????

Every time I can remember being at a table where I spot a suspected counter we normally figure each other out after a few shoes.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#9
Preston said:
Question is.. Did he catch onto you????
No indication, he didn't talk or socialize much. Pretty serious demeanor.

Incidentally, at this same casino I've now heard two different dealers make disparaging comments about the skill and/or superstition of the asian players to me (one was while an asian player was at first base!). So I think the stereotype is at least as effective on dealers as it was on me.

One of those dealers I think knew how to count cards. I'd love to seem that dealer and that player at the same table, just to see what happened.
 

weavin42

Well-Known Member
#10
I get a different sort of prejudice. I'm fairly young and have a baby face. Most people think I don't know BS because of my age (25 only been legal to gamble in MO for 4 years). It can make for some pretty good cover. I've only been questioned about my play once. Most PB don't give me a second glance. I don't know if it would work as well somewhere other than the midwest.

The first time a fellow AP talked to me after a session he said he usually doesn't like to play with 'kids' (for an AP he is very superstitious) but he realized I was counting and was amazed.

Josh
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#11
Personally, I think the hardest thing for a "kid" would be throwing around serious money (I don't know what your bets are like).

... and actually, of the three counters I've spotted, one of them looked like a college kid.

My personal prejudice would put a youngish guy in one of two categories very quickly, MIT-style card nerd, or dumbass frat boy. I think frat boys can get away with just about anything.
 

weavin42

Well-Known Member
#12
I'm not going to lie, I went to a school very similar to MIT. It was a private engineering school, one of the best undergrad in the nation (I however didn't graduate...didn't want to be an engineer). I was in a fraternity but hey it was an engineering school, most people were (5:1 guy to girl ratio can you blame me?). I'm no 'bluto' so I guess I fit into the card nerd category. To confirm your suspicions, my max bet is around $100. So I'm not throwing around that much money. I might not be a real threat or really attract that much heat given my level of play. Either way I'm the future of the casino, I don't think they look at me as a threat. I could be wrong, but I hope I can milk it for a few more years.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#13
do not worry about heat yet

Weavin

As a youngish player with a max bet of $100, probably playing shoe games in the Mid West, I would not worry about heat at all yet. If you go visit Vegas and play at low roller places like El Cortez or any Boyd (Coast) casino, especially single or double deck games, you would get heat. At a place like MGM or most strip casinos, you could play their shoe games, spread $10-$100 all day long and unless you count out loud, you should have no problem.

As your bet increases, the more places that might bring heat increases.
At your age things might bring or not bring a limited amount of interest in you, it depends on the make up of the other players who frequent the casinos that you do. What I mean is, I live in an area of California where there is a ton of rich kids. Going to the casino in the area it is not strange at all to see someone younger than you and betting hundreds of dollars on each hand. Another California casino that I go to is in an area that is much less afluent and tends to be dominated by retirees. Seeing someone there under 30 years old is in itself a rarity, and all big bets would really stick out.
Basically, you will learn that every casino or casino corporation is different. When you learn just what the differences are, you can then adjust your act to fit. Some places are tolerant of counters who play at a lower level, some places are inteolerant of everyone, even lucky non counters. In some places big money is common and bets of multi-black chips are barely noticed, while at some places one green chip gets a call of "checks play."

ihate17
 
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