Article on MGM surveillence guy
- Thread starter Pro21
- Start date
Interesting article.
If it's to be believed:
The survey requires 150 hands or so, and more for counters, so the common wisdom of ~1hr sessions holds pretty well.
650 surveys in 11 years? And only 10% required action? That's 6 per year! And they consider AP's a threat?!
PBA: I never heard of this software. Seems awfully pricey for what it is though.
If it's to be believed:
The survey requires 150 hands or so, and more for counters, so the common wisdom of ~1hr sessions holds pretty well.
650 surveys in 11 years? And only 10% required action? That's 6 per year! And they consider AP's a threat?!
PBA: I never heard of this software. Seems awfully pricey for what it is though.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
Half of this and that and whatever
I accept the 150 or so hands and have used it as a guideline in many situations.
The 6 a year requiring action needs clarification. I think if we polled everyone on just this blackjack board we might find 6 MGM backoffs this year alone. The 6 per year might be based solely on the use of this one program while others are backed off because of other reasons/programs, but I think the number is very small.
ihate17
I accept the 150 or so hands and have used it as a guideline in many situations.
The 6 a year requiring action needs clarification. I think if we polled everyone on just this blackjack board we might find 6 MGM backoffs this year alone. The 6 per year might be based solely on the use of this one program while others are backed off because of other reasons/programs, but I think the number is very small.
ihate17
From the same article:
"He also pointed out that his people are trained to detect advantage players and run down players manually if they suspect they may be counting. Sometimes a quick assessment can save time. If a player is observed betting up on a high count (or not) this could determine a need (or not) to go to the next level in analysis."
Also - who says the 650 number is true ? He may have any number of reasons for holding back the true figures...
D.
"He also pointed out that his people are trained to detect advantage players and run down players manually if they suspect they may be counting. Sometimes a quick assessment can save time. If a player is observed betting up on a high count (or not) this could determine a need (or not) to go to the next level in analysis."
Also - who says the 650 number is true ? He may have any number of reasons for holding back the true figures...
D.
Lonesome Gambler
Well-Known Member
I could be mistaken, but my guess is that very few backoffs are the result of BJ Survey analysis. In my understanding, BJ Survey is not for use while a player is at a table but rather when reviewing surveillance tapes after the player has left. So a big player that's under suspicion of AP could have their tapes reviewed to give justification for an otherwise tough decision. Obvious card counters will be backed off anyway, but casinos are more reluctant to back off high rollers because they could be very valuable to the casino and just be on a winning streak. That would explain the infrequent use of BJ survey at MGM. Interesting that the most used software is an in-house baccarat analyzer.
Edit: Misread the post before mine, which essentially says the same thing. Whoops.
Edit: Misread the post before mine, which essentially says the same thing. Whoops.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Most of my Las Vegas backoffs have come in notoriously sweaty and hostile properties. No comparison between these and the way things are done at MGM, and the way you would protect yourself is vastly different too.
QFIT
Well-Known Member
Looking through my book notes, 20% of referrals to surveillance are rated 'positive' at MGM according to Ron. I didn't include this in the book as I can't verify it. I can't find the number of referrals, but it was something like two dozen a month if memory serves me well. Obviously you can get backed off without this process. And not all positives resulted in backoffs.
I like to ask you how old is your article.
Nowadays with the RFID chips these manual, tedious, long man hours work is really obsolete. The pit boss looking at his monitor will get a red light or flashing light in a split second if the computer detect a card counter. He can also see what HA the player is playing at and how this HA may vary as the player plays on.
QFIT
Well-Known Member
The ads for the software may claim this. But it is patently absurd. Even if RFID chips were perfect, and perfect data could be collected, a computer has zero chance of calculating anywhere near the advantage of an AP. I've spent a great deal of time looking at this, not because I want to measure for the house, but because I would like to tell a player what his "real" advantage is. It is not close to possible.
daddybo
Well-Known Member
That hasn't been my experience with RFIDS. Wouldn't they have to have the capability of reading the cards as the plays are made? They may have it, but I've never noticed it anywhere. I have played several tables with rfid chips and 'puters hooked to them. No unusual heat from them yet. :eyepatch:
Along the lines of this artice, sort of.
If you are ever in Laughlin, drop by the bar in the outlet mall across from the Edgewater. The overnite bartender is a former surveliance guy from the Flamingo who was shown the door when the new owners took over. While he might not be up to date on the newest stuff, he has some very interesting tidbits to share on slow nights. I checked and can confirm he worked where he says he did.
If you are ever in Laughlin, drop by the bar in the outlet mall across from the Edgewater. The overnite bartender is a former surveliance guy from the Flamingo who was shown the door when the new owners took over. While he might not be up to date on the newest stuff, he has some very interesting tidbits to share on slow nights. I checked and can confirm he worked where he says he did.
You and others can calculate the HA for the player but the computer cannot. How so, may I ask.
QFIT
Well-Known Member
We calculate advantage and risk based on a billion hands and an absolutely defined set of strategies. The software used by some casinos looks at a tiny number of hands and attempts to divine the playing, betting, wonging, tipping and cover strategies based on an absurdly small subset of hands. It has no concept of what is a cover play, versus an error, versus an actual strategy. It doesn't even know the tag values used, whether there are side counts, if the player is tracking, if the player is taking cues from a partner, or if the player mimicking someone else. The entire concept is ridiculous.
I tried to figure out how to do this to help a player knowing exactly his strategies and decided even then it is impossible.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
RFID and a computer is not enough
You need an additional program for your computer if you have someone in the eye count down the shoe with the player to evauate him while the RFID simply lets him know what he has bet on each hand.
The other solution that just does not work right (yet at least) was something lke Mindplay21, where the computer knew each and every card in the shoe in their exact sequence. There are enough old threads here explaining why Mindplay was a complete utter failure, but it did have the capability of knowing the count, the amount bet and could relay this information to the pit.
ihate17
You need an additional program for your computer if you have someone in the eye count down the shoe with the player to evauate him while the RFID simply lets him know what he has bet on each hand.
The other solution that just does not work right (yet at least) was something lke Mindplay21, where the computer knew each and every card in the shoe in their exact sequence. There are enough old threads here explaining why Mindplay was a complete utter failure, but it did have the capability of knowing the count, the amount bet and could relay this information to the pit.
ihate17
daddybo
Well-Known Member
That has been my experience also. They kinda lay in wait. :laugh:
daddybo
Well-Known Member
That make sense.