The Lure of Hold'Em

[1357111317]

I don't know how u can even fit 16-20 tables on your monitor!!! Every time I try to play more than say 3 games at once I'll hear this beeping letting me know other tables are waiting for me to respond which only further distracts me. If I don't act quick enough, I could end up losing a big hand.

Well you just get used to it i guess. Start with 4-6 talbes and then slowly add tables as you get more comfortable . Its all about making quick decisions. Now in FR you don't want to be playing more than 15% of your hands anyways so most of it is just hitting the fold button. I wish I had a macro so I could just hit a key and it would fold rather than havin to click. Now granted i timed out on a couple big hands PF but i think overall i was winning more due to the more hands per hour I was getting

 

[StandardDeviant]

I would have to disagree with this statement. Open your eyes... There is much room for Creativity AND Thinking.

I suppose I was a bit overzealous in my comment. I agree that there is creativity in BJ, just not in the actual play of the game, but in everything that surrounds it.

As I learn more about poker, I am coming to believe that there isn't that much more creativity there either -- just a little bluffing now and then -- and I would have to agree that BJ is 24/7 bluffing against the house

 

[StandardDeviant]

...

I'm learning about craps rights now. I don't really know if it's possible to control the dice, but I do know that it is a lot of fun, and seems to be a lot more comaraderie between you and the other players, as well the crew.

This is how I am thinking about poker. I find the learning fun and it's a break from BJ. I wouldn't say there's much camaraderie around the poker table tho

 

[Sharky]

I could go on and on about why online poker is a more lucrative form of AP than blackjack...

now this statement is pure poppycock!!!

For one thing, I know for a FACT that online poker is FULL of COLLUSION.

Why replace BJ which:
has fixed rules for your opponent
is completely mathematics based
is beatable

with Poker which has opponents:
that act on hunches
have peculiar tolerances for risk
that unknowingly (to you) team play
with tells to continuously try to decipher

 

[1357111317]

now this statement is pure poppycock!!!

For one thing, I know for a FACT that online poker is FULL of COLLUSION.

Why replace BJ which:
has fixed rules for your opponent
is completely mathematics based
is beatable

with Poker which has opponents:
that act on hunches
have peculiar tolerances for risk
that unknowingly (to you) team play
with tells to continuously try to decipher

How do you know that sharky? Do you have any proof?

 

[StandardDeviant]

10 Hours Under My Belt

I just completed my first 10 hours of 2-4 hold'em play at my local casino, and I have to say that I really enjoyed the experience. The experience is quite different from BJ in some respects, and quite similar in others. Bottom line, I enjoyed myself and will be playing more in the future. Can a WSOP entry be far behind? :laugh:

 

[mjbballar23]

now this statement is pure poppycock!!!

For one thing, I know for a FACT that online poker is FULL of COLLUSION.

Why replace BJ which:
has fixed rules for your opponent
is completely mathematics based
is beatable

with Poker which has opponents:
that act on hunches
have peculiar tolerances for risk
that unknowingly (to you) team play
with tells to continuously try to decipher

Im curious to hear what facts you have that online poker is full of collusion. And please dont use the Ultimate Bet example because that is old news. Im guessing you have deposited a few times on full tilt or poker stars, gotten sucked out on when you had AA and utimately concluded that online poker is rigged and cant be trusted. A true sob story.

Being a successful poker player takes many qualities that arent necessarily required to succeed at blackjack, some have it and some dont. Its survival of fittest, evolve or die.

 

[moo321]

There's some collusion online, but probably not a lot of active collusion, like whipsawing. Too obvious. Maybe sharing your holecards with another player, but that's not very useful in holdem. Much better for stud or Omaha.

 

[blackjack avenger]

An Analysis of the Thread

It appears that with very small bankrolls online poker offers very low limits that allows one to play and learn.

Some are saying poker is hard and others saying easy. This is probably due to experience and/or game selection. This seems to underscore there can be quite a learning curve.

Possible order of profitability:
Online poker, if many tables
Blackjack
Brick and Mortar Poker

I would think the mental effort to play multiple tables online would lead to more fatigue then BJ.

With all the games you face the issue of some form of cheating or human error from the player.

Coming from a very experienced bj background with some online poker playing experience. The issues that concern me are:
Pokers long learning curve
A skill one may not be able to master

Some have mentioned the idea of having different investment opportunities. There is something also to be said for mastery of one strategy. If one is already highly proficient in one game then you face opportunity costs for every moment not involved in your primary game. Probably worse would be to damage your bank while learning a new game.:joker::whip:

 

[Sucker]

I think the american airlines all in play just about sums the game up. If you go all in and there are no callers you are 100% odds on to win the pot. With one underpair caller it reduces to 70%, with two it becomes a coin toss at 49% and if there are three callers with underpairs depite having the best hand you then become odds-on to lose.

I'll stick with Blackjack.

Good luck

Actually; if you go all-in with AA and get called by an underpair you have about an 82% chance of beating him. But that's beside the point. Poker is not about winning hands, [/B] it's about winning money.

Supposing you're playing blackjack, and the house decides to make a rule whereby you are ALWAYS dealt an 18. If you play, you're playing at a "coin toss" of about 49%. But suppose the house tells you that winning hands pay 2 to 1! This is exactly what is happening in your poker analogy.

Let's carry this even further. Supposing you're playing poker in a 9 handed game; you pick up pocket rockets; and decide to go all in. What is the optimal number of opponents that you would like to have calling you? The answer is ALL EIGHT of them! You'll only win the hand about 30% of thlie time, but you'll be getting 8 to 1 on your money, and that's not even including the money in the blinds.

 

[Sucker]

Why replace bj which:
Has fixed rules for your opponent
is completely mathematics based
is beatable

with poker which has opponents:
That act on hunches
have peculiar tolerances for risk
that unknowingly (to you) team play
with tells to continuously try to decipher

WHY?

BECAUSE:

Blackjack "Has fixed rules for your opponent
is completely mathematics based
is beatable"

and because poker "has opponents:
That act on hunches
have peculiar tolerances for risk
with tells to continuously try to decipher"

I left out the part about team play because your statements about it are simply not true.

 

[fubster]

StandardDeviant –

One thing I guarantee you’ll find annoying is the difficulty of separating the luck component from the skill component.

With blackjack it’s easy; you make the correct BS or index play, and lose. Bad luck.

With poker you bet your nice hand, and your opponent happens to make his flush on the river, beating you. Bad luck? Maybe, or was there something you could have done earlier to induce him to fold before making his flush? A few of your losses will be clearly due to bad luck. But for most of them you will have these niggling doubts: Could I have gotten him to fold? Should I have folded earlier? Should I have recognized that my hand was second-best?

this is SO true. it's very easy to second-guess yourself and doubt your abilities at poker. if you don't show an immediate positive return, lots of people get frustrated and assume they suck or something.

truth is, variance in poker can be almost (or just as) brutal as in blackjack.

fun fact: it takes a lottttt longer for your expectation to regress to the mean in poker because you're getting something like 25 hands per hour (assuming live play), and you're folding around 85% of those hands.

this may be a horrible analogy, but imagine you were playing blackjack and you were, for some reason, wonging to the point that you only play when you'd have a max bet out. that opportunity comes along once every few shoes or so (not entirely sure, but that's close, right?). as soon as the TC drops below +5, you wong out. let's assume you average out to one max bet per shoe. how long would it take, in this obviously contrived example, for your expectation to regress to the mathematical mean?

my apologies for what is probably an absurd example, i'm still learning this whole wacky "blackjack" thing, where 74o is actually a hand worth playing.

 

[fubster]

I will say though that I believe that limit poker is the way to go for blackjack players, as you're dealing with a much clearer strategy and essentially just playing off of odds. With no-limit, you can experience a much higher win rate, but you'll need to become a pretty solid player to make it worth the difference in WR from limit poker.

 

[fubster]

Don't play Texas Hold Em.

Learn to play Pot Limit Omaha and Pot Limit Omaha/8

MUCH better games.

Far more complex - leading to increased chances for skill to dominatew luck.

plo8 is completely cornered by ultraspecialists.

plo is just sick. sick in every way. a pox on whoever created that raunchy game...

 

[fubster]

SD, forget about playing NL Texas Hold 'em. For starters before you even play in the casinos, you should have lots of experience under your belt and it's hard to gain the required experience now without suffering a big hit to your bankroll. A few years ago, you didn't have to be that good to rake in the money. Now, it's a much different game. Secondly, you need tons of patience to play this game. The last time I went, I kid you not, I did not have a single winning hand in 3 hours (Really bad run of cards) To be successful, you shouldn't play more than 25% of your hands at a 10 player table. In one hour, you might play oh about 5 decent hands. It is by far, more boring than BJ. Every once in a while, you'll win a decent sized pot but I'd describe the win as something akin to when you split to 3 hands and win them all. Few and far between. It's a major grind to say the least usually. I'd focus your time and energy as Flash said on a different game like Omaha as you're really late to the game.

25% is way too high. live poker is actually even more boring than that!

 

[fubster]

Actually, I find it more frustrating when I lose at BJ when I know that I still made the right play. With poker, I know it is my fault and I can improve.

this can be a slippery logical slope... don't mean to reference other threads but i posted a bit about expectation vs perceived ranges in some other poker thread. basically, if you lose because you run into the top of someone's range, don't sweat it. you played it fine.

I am still sorting this out, but think that Sit-N-Go has some interesting possibilities.

SnGs are 100% solved. they are incredibly dull. you can beat them for around 10% ROI if you care to learn how. SnGs above the $100 level are completely dead.

 

[fubster]

Playing $1/$2 NL online is almost impossible to beat. The players in that game from what I've seen are the equivalent of the $5/10 NL players at the casino. Unless you're a pro, forget playing that level online. I would say playing online at .25/.50 NL is what you can expect in a $1/$2 NL game at the casino in terms of skill. And may I remind you that poker is a lot of luck too. You can have top pair on the flop and bet all you want and you're still going to have the nitwit who will call with his ace high flush draw and suck out on you after you go all in. I see it every time I play. Also what do you do when you have pocket aces and the other player calls your preflop raise with a pair of 4's and hits a set on the flop. You can't put him on a set of 4's and you know you have top pair so you bet the heck out of it thinking they have the top pair on the board. I see people get killed by that a lot too.

1/2 online, the play is hoooorrrrribleeee. i'd say if you can beat 1/2 online you can probably beat most 10/20 live games. if you can beat 25c/50c online you can probably beat 5/10.

bj is lots of luck, too. ez game when you split 8s vs a dealer 5 at a TC of +5, catch a 3 on each, double, get 18 and 19 and "oh lol 6 card 21!"

Also what do you do when you have pocket aces and the other player calls your preflop raise with a pair of 4's and hits a set on the flop.

lose your stack? i mean there are times when you can get away from aces but when you open, someone flats in the blinds and flop comes K49 rainbow you just lose your stack. that's how it works...

 

[fubster]

OK that is true. It took me 7 months of playing to reach $1/2 online. However, im confident that i can teach almost anyone to beat .1/.25 within a couple weeks and you can still make $15 an hour with only a $400 bankroll.

that is an absurdly small bankroll, and you can easily make wayyy more than that at 25nl.

 

[fubster]

I don't know how u can even fit 16-20 tables on your monitor!!! Every time I try to play more than say 3 games at once I'll hear this beeping letting me know other tables are waiting for me to respond which only further distracts me. If I don't act quick enough, I could end up losing a big hand.

i don't mass multitable, but most people who do stack the tables on top of each other. as soon as you act on one table, another pops up in its place.

i'd probably be -EV trying to play like that, but some people do it and they absolutely crush (look up nanonoko on pokertableratings.com, he's a beast)

 

[fubster]

Well you just get used to it i guess. Start with 4-6 talbes and then slowly add tables as you get more comfortable . Its all about making quick decisions. Now in FR you don't want to be playing more than 15% of your hands anyways so most of it is just hitting the fold button. I wish I had a macro so I could just hit a key and it would fold rather than havin to click. Now granted i timed out on a couple big hands PF but i think overall i was winning more due to the more hands per hour I was getting

15% is too many hands, and they have something that does that. AHK (autohotkeys) is a script thats free to download, and totally allowed on all sites.