Back-counting (Wonging) doesn't work.

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ArcticInferno

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
According to Fred Renzey's Blackjack Bluebook II (which is one of the best books out there),
mid-shoe entry after back-counting (Wonging) is an important technique.
I got caught at Cesar's Palace for doing just that, back-counting.
My betting spread was from $25-$100, which shouldn't have attracted negative attention.
Actually, I even asked for a reshuffle at one of the tables, which they did.
They said that they were watching me for hours.
They told me that I may play any game I want, except Blackjack, so I cashed out and left.
Back-counting seems like a great idea, but the risk of getting caught isn't worth it.
My personal suggestion is to sit through the shoe from the beginning and accept the loss
from a bad shoe to avoid detection. Simply consider the loss as part of the business.
I would take longevity over a short-term gain.
 
1

1357111317

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
ArcticInferno said:
According to Fred Renzey's Blackjack Bluebook II (which is one of the best books out there),
mid-shoe entry after back-counting (Wonging) is an important technique.
I got caught at Cesar's Palace for doing just that, back-counting.
My betting spread was from $25-$100, which shouldn't have attracted negative attention.
Actually, I even asked for a reshuffle at one of the tables, which they did.

They said that they were watching me for hours.

They told me that I may play any game I want, except Blackjack, so I cashed out and left.
Back-counting seems like a great idea, but the risk of getting caught isn't worth it.
My personal suggestion is to sit through the shoe from the beginning and accept the loss
from a bad shoe to avoid detection. Simply consider the loss as part of the business.
I would take longevity over a short-term gain.
Click to expand...

How many hours exactly? This is almost definatly the reason why you got the boot.
 
P

prankster

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Backcounting

You're right about Freds' book that's for sure.It amazes me that goldmine of blackjack information can be had for less than twenty bucks! Sometimes it's best to backcount just long enough to see if the count is going in the right direction.
If it seems to be moving in the right direction grab a seat, if it's going in the wrong direction walk. I've stood and backcounted for long periods of time when I saw a dealer cutting out less than 1 deck of a 6 deck shoe,so I know how it is to not want to sit just yet or walk. Lately I've found I'll of course make sure the pen is good and backcount long enough to see which way the count appears to be moving-then sit or keep walking. So I may sit before the count reaches the point where I should increse my bet.Maybe hold some cash in your hand and look at it as if you're trying to "work up the courage" to take a seat. Also maybe look at your watch as if you're maybe thinking of leaving any minute and just passing the time. Good luck.:joker:
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Theres backcounting, and then theres backcounting. Like any other AP move, there's an art to it.
I won't go into the right ways to backcount, but standing directly behind a table moving your lips as you count is not one of them. Nor is backcounting for hours at a time.
 
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ycming

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
hmm spreading from 25-100, is that a 1-4 spread? (unit = 25)

Then without wonging out at neg count, i guess u need a 1-8 spread to beat the game!

ming
 
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slowride

Member
#7
#7
backcounting

I was wondering what the calculation (so to speak) was for backcounting during mid shoe? I have no problem counting, but how do you know what the count would be if you just started counting when several decks have been dealt? Is their some formula or something i don't know? Any help would be appreciated....Also I'm interested in that book, where can i get it? Thanks
 
D

Dopple

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
Just start as if it were a new shoe. Your tc is determined by total unseen cards. It will take longer to get positive since you dont know what is in the played cards you missed.
 
QFIT

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
psyduck said:
Are players allowed to use binoculars?
Click to expand...
Actually an interesting question. When you are fitted for reading glasses, you can specify the desired focal length. Generally, you wear reading glasses that focus on the distance of a book or newspaper. I have glasses that focus a bit farther, to a PC screen. You can focus further yet, to the other side of a BJ table.

Note: IANAL, but I don't see how this can violate the Nevada optical device law.
 
QFIT

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
slowride said:
I was wondering what the calculation (so to speak) was for backcounting during mid shoe? I have no problem counting, but how do you know what the count would be if you just started counting when several decks have been dealt? Is their some formula or something i don't know? Any help would be appreciated....
Click to expand...
Simple. Don't do that. If you start counting in the middle of a shoe, then you have drastically lowered penetration.
 
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ExhibitCAA

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Arctic: "My betting spread was from $25-$100,"

Mistake #1--spreading. I realize that all the books have numbers for spreading after wonging in, but the casinos hate bet movement. As much as possible, you should try to minimize it. Flatbet if you can. You'll get differing opinions on this one, so let's move on to some meatier stuff.

Arctic: "Actually, I even asked for a reshuffle at one of the tables, which they did."

Mistake #2--getting on the radar. This is exactly the kind of tell they are looking for. You just gave it to them. This is VERY LIKELY the thing that triggered their observation of you. The dealer can't shuffle without approval from the floorperson (or even the pit boss), and the first thing the floorperson will ask herself is, "Who is this guy asking for a reshuffle?"

Arctic: "They said that they were watching me for hours."

Mistakes #3-#10--playing the second hour, then the third hour, then the fourth, etc. My only thought here is, "You cannot be serious!"

Arctic: "... so I cashed out and left."

Mistake #11--making an unnecessary cashout. Next time keep your head down and casually walk out the door onto the Strip without cashing out. Cash out later on a different shift, or have a friend cash out the chips.

Arctic: "... Back-counting seems like a great idea, but the risk of getting caught isn't worth it. ... My personal suggestion is to sit through the shoe from the beginning"

Mistake #12--making an incorrect strategic adjustment after a backoff. Not only can backcounting lower a counter's BR risk, it actually REDUCES exposure and heat if properly done.

Arctic: "I would take longevity over a short-term gain."

Mistake #13--inaccurate self-assessment. Clearly, you choose short-term gain (the time savings of not walking down the road) over longevity. For a counter, heat is higher in Vegas than most other venues. So why is Vegas a great venue? Because there are MANY casinos! The whole point of Vegas is to minimize exposure by spreading it around. By camping at Caesars, you took away the main benefit of the city. And why? So that you wouldn't have to walk around? Get some exercise! Wonging's great, but you still have to spread it around.

These are all common rookie mistakes, and all very correctable. Next time should be better. Don't give up on wonging just yet.

P.S. Don't use a player's card.
 
2

21forme

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
QFIT said:
Actually an interesting question. When you are fitted for reading glasses, you can specify the desired focal length. Generally, you wear reading glasses that focus on the distance of a book or newspaper. I have glasses that focus a bit farther, to a PC screen. You can focus further yet, to the other side of a BJ table.

Note: IANAL, but I don't see how this can violate the Nevada optical device law.
Click to expand...
Won't really work. Simple lenses (reading glasses, bifocals, no-line progressive bifocals) won't give you enough magnification more than a few feet away. You would need compound or telescopic lenses (which binoculars are) which would be obvious and not legal.
 
J

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
A good LASIK provider might be able to offer a custom / optimized solution:

(Dead link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6859483.ece)

Also, if you combine contacts and glasses, you can conceivably turn this combination into a telephoto lens. (I wouldn't recommend doing this surgically!) It would be extremely difficult to detect, of course.
 
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ExhibitCAA

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
I strongly recommend Lasik as a quality-of-life improvement, regardless of its helpfulness for card play.

That said, what the heck is everyone talking about here? Special optics for BACKCOUNTING????? Even for holecarding, the optical stuff is a red herring. Anyone whose perceived problem and solution involves enhanced optics is totally missing the boat.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#15
#15
QFIT said:
Simple. Don't do that. If you start counting in the middle of a shoe, then you have drastically lowered penetration.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's not so bad, sometimes you can be walking by a table with a deck or so dealt out and you see a crateload of low cards down there. Why not play?

If you are using an unbalanced system in running count mode, you do absolutely nothing different than if you were starting at the beginning of a shoe. Same IRC, same everything. If you are using a true counted system, you just pretend the cards that were dealt out already were behind the cut card and not in the discards, and do your TC calculation with that data.
 
iCountNTrack

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
Automatic Monkey said:
Maybe it's not so bad, sometimes you can be walking by a table with a deck or so dealt out and you see a crateload of low cards down there. Why not play?

If you are using an unbalanced system in running count mode, you do absolutely nothing different than if you were starting at the beginning of a shoe. Same IRC, same everything. If you are using a true counted system, you just pretend the cards that were dealt out already were behind the cut card and not in the discards, and do your TC calculation with that data.
Click to expand...
Not so bad?!!!
Good numbers speak louder than words

6D H17 DAS Backcount 1-6 spread

1.5 decks cut out SCORE = 34

2.5 decks cut out SCORE = 14

Why not work at McDonalds instead?
 
S

sabre

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
Your comparison is faulty. AM cited walking past a game with a crapton of small cards out on the felt.

Compare a game with 1.5 cut starting at TC 0, with a game with 2.5 cut starting at TC 1 or TC 1.5.
 
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shiznites

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
21forme said:
Simple lenses (reading glasses, bifocals, no-line progressive bifocals) won't give you enough magnification more than a few feet away. You would need compound or telescopic lenses (which binoculars are) which would be obvious and not legal.
Click to expand...
This guy is right. I've worked in the optical field for 8 years. The only way you could get magnification of tables from afar would be to use some type of telescopic lenses.

Anyone have creative ideas or things they've tried to backcount successfully (ie, pretending to be on the cell phone, checking out the craps table while simultaneously backcounting)?
 
iCountNTrack

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
sabre said:
Your comparison is faulty. AM cited walking past a game with a crapton of small cards out on the felt.

Compare a game with 1.5 cut starting at TC 0, with a game with 2.5 cut starting at TC 1 or TC 1.5.
Click to expand...
Assuming you ALWAYS see that scenario which is comparable to the situation where the casino was using a modified shoe and removed 6 low cards AND you were aware of that gift.

The SCORE goes up to 17, still a very bad game. Cutting out an extra deck for is really mortal for a counter.
 
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