advice wanted on how to play a BJ machine that dont shuffle til 2/3 of the cards deal

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sevencard2003

Well-Known Member
they used to have this machine at the las vegas club too, but they removed it cause players could count the cards. now all they got is the one shuffling after every hand like the plaza and the sahara and ceasers. only other place not shuffling til 2/3 is dealt is the westin camisura, besides here at stratosphere. it uses 6 decks.

i know a player can beat it--FOR otherwise the lasvegas club wouldnt removed it. but can i have good advice on how? and how can u tell exactly when that shuffle takes place, and 2/3 are dealt? it dont say. experienced machine advantage players advice wanted PLEASE.

rules are correct 3-2 payouts on BJ, 7 cards is treated as a WIN, and surrender is allowed. u can play one hand $3-100 and up to 5 hands at once if all the spots are empty. double down is allowed after splitting, but not with aces. dealer hits soft 17. i think for every $1000 worth of bets u get like $2 cashback and $4 comps.

also u can double on any 2 cards. aces can only be split once.

as someone being new to this forum, but has posted often in various poker forums, any BJ advice on this machine would be helpful, especially if its from someone experienced in beating machines.
 
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callipygian

Well-Known Member
sevencard2003 said:
how can u tell exactly when that shuffle takes place, and 2/3 are dealt? it dont say
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(1) If 2/3 of the shoe is dealt, this is called "66% penetration". It will be easier to talk in terms that people commonly use.

(2) The big problem with the machines is that you DON'T know what the penetration is. There's no way to tell that you have 66% penetration. Be skeptical of anyone who claims to know.

Some people claim there's a little display of a deck, and it seems to shuffle at a certain point. I call BS - the main reason why a physical table does not shuffle every hand is because shuffling is slow by hand; there is no other reason why the casino would want to delay shuffling. Given that an electronic machine can shuffle quickly, there is ZERO incentive to play an electronic shoe with any meaningful penetration. Of course, there's absolutely nothing illegal about putting a display which makes it LOOK like there's good penetration, and I'm willing to bet that the display is a total sham.

The way to prove that an actual shoe is being dealt is to play several thousand shoes and statistically analyze each card that is dealt. If an actual 6-deck shoe is used, you should NEVER see more than 6 of any specific card per shoe. For each card, you should see a normal distribution of cards/shoe peak at n; averaging over all 52 cards should give penetration = <n>/6.

sevencard2003 said:
rules are correct 3-2 payouts on BJ, 7 cards is treated as a WIN, and surrender is allowed. u can play one hand $3-100 and up to 5 hands at once if all the spots are empty. double down is allowed after splitting, but not with aces. dealer hits soft 17. i think for every $1000 worth of bets u get like $2 cashback and $4 comps.

also u can double on any 2 cards. aces can only be split once.
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Those look like good rules, but good rules are only half of card counting. The other half is penetration.
 
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sevencard2003

Well-Known Member
callipygian said:
(1) If 2/3 of the shoe is dealt, this is called "66% penetration". It will be easier to talk in terms that people commonly use.

(2) The big problem with the machines is that you DON'T know what the penetration is. There's no way to tell that you have 66% penetration. Be skeptical of anyone who claims to know.

Some people claim there's a little display of a deck, and it seems to shuffle at a certain point. I call BS - the main reason why a physical table does not shuffle every hand is because shuffling is slow by hand; there is no other reason why the casino would want to delay shuffling. Given that an electronic machine can shuffle quickly, there is ZERO incentive to play an electronic shoe with any meaningful penetration. Of course, there's absolutely nothing illegal about putting a display which makes it LOOK like there's good penetration, and I'm willing to bet that the display is a total sham.

The way to prove that an actual shoe is being dealt is to play several thousand shoes and statistically analyze each card that is dealt. If an actual 6-deck shoe is used, you should NEVER see more than 6 of any specific card per shoe. For each card, you should see a normal distribution of cards/shoe peak at n; averaging over all 52 cards should give penetration = <n>/6.



Those look like good rules, but good rules are only half of card counting. The other half is penetration.
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i dont see any display showing the shoe, never said there was one. but it does state right on the machine (with the rules and payouts) shuffle takes place after 2/3 of 6 decks dealt. is it when the dealer changes? they alternate between several dealers, all female.
 
Mimosine

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
watch the game long enough to know when it shuffles. maybe there will be a little pause in the action, or the word "shuffle" on the screen.

there are machines in RI that show a discard tray and show the word "shuffle" when it happens.

could be a great opportunity because you probably can spread like a madman and simultaneously get comps, and wong out without leaving the table, just don't play negative count hands.
 
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sevencard2003

Well-Known Member
well i like to play when im the only one on it, so i do play negative counts at times, but bet less of course. but it does NOT tell u when it shuffles. just would like to find out if its when dealers are switched. is there ANY vegas locals who read this forum and can advise?
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
These machines have been discussed in the past. They say they shuffle after 2/3rds of a deck,so they must. Otherwise they would violate Nevada gaming rules. Study them, read all you can and you'll find out how to beat them. They can be beaten but it's not something we'll discuss on a public forum or with new posters.
 
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sevencard2003

Well-Known Member
basically what i wanna know is how much a hand on average can i expect to win off a $3000 bankroll? and do they have them machines in laughlin too? feel free to PM if this forum makes u uncomfortable, but i doubt the casinos bother to read it or care about it. if they didnt want the machine there, theyd removed it like lasvegasclub did. id just like to know if theyres really a way to be 100% sure when they shuffle or who i should email for more advice on how to beat em.

and what would u recommend i use as my bet spread? this is also my poker bankroll, wish it could be higher.
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
Trop and aquarius have $1-$3 machines. Harrahs has a $3 minimum.
Study the machine. If you can't deduce when the shuffle point is, you're not ready.
 
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sevencard2003

Well-Known Member
trop and aquarius the minimum is only $1? is it easy to get it to urself the right time of day? which has better cashback? that sounds like a better game for only $3000 bankroll. would u say $1 min and $10 - $20 max per hand a decent spread? seems like im reading the forum correctly, changing the dealer initiates the shuffle.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
sevencard2003 said:
basically what i wanna know is how much a hand on average can i expect to win off a $3000 bankroll?
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A 6D game with 66% pen and a $3k bankroll? You'll be luck if you make a few dollars per hour, but it all depends on your playing strategy, betting strategy, acceptable level of risk, speed of play and a few other factors. It's probably best if you learn about all of thost things first before you start playing for real money. Most card counters go broke because they don't know how to play properly and/or they play bad games. This situation has the potential for both. Get your skills and knowledge up to speed first. Forget about the machine for a little while (there are much better games in that area anyway).

-Sonny-
 
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sevencard2003

Well-Known Member
oh i know im better off playing $1-2 NL holdem til i run my roll up somewhat, its just i wanna know when i take breaks and sit and play the machine, that i should still be making $5-10 an hour or so and not losing.
 
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