Bankroll Building

[Pelerus]

I have a small problem, or perhaps a puzzle, that I would like to present to you all. I am a 22 year old college student who has had a longstanding interest in advantage gambling, specifically blackjack. In fact, I have posted on these forums before - my last visit was June 5, 2006 according to the website!

Last summer was the pinnacle of my blackjack experience thus far, as I traveled to Foxwoods several times for blackjack trips, and made a marginal profit overall. Of course, before those trips I read several books on blackjack (I have a nice little library now) and practiced counting for long hours by myself. Since then, however, school and personal matters have drawn me away from the casino.

Now I feel ready to return - and therein lies the problem. I have virtually no money saved, as it has gone into other outlets when I stopped being concerned with "saving money for blackjack." I do have a job as a cashier with a VERY marginal income, and I do some yard work part time. My question and problem is this:

What is the best way to go about making money at blackjack given my situation? Simple question perhaps, but quite complex, as I have discovered. Thus far, I have found 2 main possibilities:

1) traditional - work my dead-end, minimum wage jobs until I have around 10k saved , which is the bare minimum necessary for playing with an acceptable Risk of Ruin at Foxwoods Casino, which offers mainly $15-$25 minimum tables
2) "hail mary" - accept a much higher RoR on individual trips, with the knowledge that I can replenish the Hail Mary bankroll in between trips and with the hope that on one of the trips, I will boost up

The second option seemed like the better of the two to me, since I dread the prospect of saving a full starting bankroll at $7.5 per hour - I think anyone would! :laugh: However, upon closer inspection, Hail Mary has its own share of problems for me, namely that I cannot easily regenerate the amount I would need even for such a bankroll. Secondly, even if I do "boost up" with such a bankroll, where am I left? Still without a full bankroll.

In any case, I throw my conundrum upon the collective mastery of the forum membership! Thanks for any input.

 

[tribute]

Pelerus,
I would hope you try to get your life and career going in the right direction before diving into gambling. Even when you are able to accumulate $10k, why subject it to the uncertainties and variance of this crazy game. I don't know very many 22 year olds who have even been able to save up that much.
If I had invested $10K in the market at age 22, it would have grown to over $300K by now. Go out and make a life for yourself.

Just some thoughts from an old BJ player.

 

[shadroch]

Forget your $10,000 BR goal. It seems pretty unrealistic,given your circumstances.But don't give up your dream.
Here is how I would try to do it.
Save $3,000.It can be done in much less time,and I think the closer you get to the goal,the quicker you'll save towards it.
Once done,put $1,500 away where it remains for an emergancy.
Take your $1,500 and treat yourself to a few days Downtown in Las Vegas. As you mention Foxwoods,I assume you are in the NE and flights to Vegas will run you less than $300,sometimes as little as $200.Hotels downtown can run as little as $30 a nite,and I'll spot you a couple of 2-4-1 coupons that will cut your cost in half.Food downtown is plentiful and cheap.
With $1,000 trip bankroll,you should easily survive several days downtown,and you'll get a clearer picture of if you like playing days on end.
With any sort of luck,you'll come home having recovered most of your expenses and have a much better idea of how you want to go from there.

 

[EasyRhino]

http://www.casinobonuswhores.com/
http://www.beatingbonuses.com/

You can play at Foxwoods and wong like a maniac with a fairly small bankroll. Even then, if your big bet is something like $25, then that cashier job might still be better off.

But, you know, doing well in school and getting a good job afterwards is going to have a vastly bigger effect on things than your gambling bankroll right now.

 

[zengrifter]

2) "hail mary" - accept a much higher RoR on individual trips, with the knowledge that I can replenish the Hail Mary bankroll in between trips and with the hope that on one of the trips, I will boost up

The second option seemed like the better of the two to me, since I dread the prospect of saving a full starting bankroll at $7.5 per hour - I think anyone would! :laugh: However, upon closer inspection, Hail Mary has its own share of problems for me, namely that I cannot easily regenerate the amount I would need even for such a bankroll. Secondly, even if I do "boost up" with such a bankroll, where am I left? Still without a full bankroll.

#2 is entirely acceptable - a "replenishing BR" - would be achieved IF you put a minimum of $1500-2000 together to start, AND you can add $750/mo WITHOUT FAIL from non-gambling sources, regardless if you won at BJ on a given month, committed for the next 24-mos.

The bottom line is that you don't need all of the cash at once for it to be a "full BR". zg

 

[Automatic Monkey]

http://www.casinobonuswhores.com/
http://www.beatingbonuses.com/

You can play at Foxwoods and wong like a maniac with a fairly small bankroll. Even then, if your big bet is something like $25, then that cashier job might still be better off.

But, you know, doing well in school and getting a good job afterwards is going to have a vastly bigger effect on things than your gambling bankroll right now.

All very true. I visit Foxwoods all the time with $3K in my pocket, and I play $25 games. But I'm completely prepared to lose that $3K and it has happened.

Sounds like you need to finish your education and get a job where losing $3K wouldn't be that big of a deal. But in the meantime, if working for $7.50 per hour does it for you, you can backcount tables at Foxwoods with a low enough bet where you are unlikely to lose much.

What count are you using Pelerus?

 

[Craps Master]

Here are some options you could consider:

• Take out a massive unsecured loan at prosper.com and risk ruining your credit if you happen to lose the borrowed money at the tables.
• Try to find games with bigger edges than counting offers.
• Team up with unsuspecting newbies to the blackjack scene and then rob them of their small 5k-10k bankrolls.
• Get into online sports arbitrage. Borrow money to fund it if you have to. This method is risk free, but it doesn't net all that much profit.
• Get into online casino bonus hustling. Again, the earn isn't that high for a newbie like you who has no bankroll to speak of, but the RoR is very low when compared to similar EV levels from counting, what with all the highly favorable bonus situations you can find.
• Look for slots or video poker machines with erroneously high payouts or that payout in the wrong denomination. Not so easy to find, of course, but when you do, you can get big EV with minimal RoR, compared to counting.
• Play with maximum aggression (zero cover) at big houses like Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun for your paltry stakes action. You won't get noticed. Try to log about 100 hours a week doing this.
• Claim to be a former MIT team member and offer blackjack seminars.

 

[Sonny]

As others have pointed out, you’re going to have to save up your money for a while before you are ready to play. Use that time to practice and research every advantage available to you. You will want to be completely prepared when the time comes to start playing. Work out your exact game plan (game selection, betting spread, playing style, bankroll, RoR, expected SD, EV, N0, advanced techniques, etc.) while you still have the time. You should know exactly what to expect before you can make the right decision.

You may find that, at your current economical level, it doesn’t make sense to be gambling with your hard earned money. Once you look at your game plan and see how wild the fluctuations can be you might change your mind about playing. That is not a decision that we can help you make. However, if you decide to play then you might enjoy this link to an earlier discussion about playing with a small bankroll:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=5655

-Sonny-

 

[Mimosine]

Take your $1,500 and treat yourself to a few days Downtown in Las Vegas. As you mention Foxwoods,I assume you are in the NE and flights to Vegas will run you less than $300,sometimes as little as $200.Hotels downtown can run as little as $30 a nite,and I'll spot you a couple of 2-4-1 coupons that will cut your cost in half.Food downtown is plentiful and cheap.

getting your life in order and maybe getting a better paying job, or a second job or some more odd jobs --- those should really be your priority.

other than that i personally like Shadroch's advice the best. i have a tiny bankroll right now that i just recently doubled, with a lot of luck and a lot of work.... with my limited funds i won't even wong in on a $15 table. a $10 yes, but $15 no. so for me i have to hunt for really good $5 shoe games and really good $10 DD games. going to vegas really would be your best bet. there are incredible games all over for cheap - you would have your choice of stakes, as well as SD, DD, & 6D games. you could very well lose your whole stake in a trip, but it would be a lot less frustrating (for me anyway) than losing it by backcounting tables with a $15 min bet.

 

[ScottH]

[*]Get into online casino bonus hustling. Again, the earn isn't that high for a newbie like you who has no bankroll to speak of, but the RoR is very low when compared to similar EV levels from counting, what with all the highly favorable bonus situations you can find.

Are there still a lot of good ones out there after the legislation was passed? I did maybe 10 good ones before all of that happened, and then I was about to do more and I decided not to after casinos started closing, neteller froze, etc. Are there still really good bonuses that have a really good chance of paying out?

 

[EasyRhino]

Yeah.

Depends on whether or not you're in one of the "11 states" where even more casinos will deny accounts, but I'd say it dropped to about 25%-40% of what it was before. And deposits and withdrawals (ecocard is best option right now) got slower and impose some transaction fees. But there's still money to be made.

 

[mdlbj]

I would start putting your savings into an IRA or something and wait until your career has sprouted before you risk 10k on blackjack. Life will throw you some curve balls and you need to be ready for that. Give it some time bro.

 

[biggamejames]

Forget your $10,000 BR goal. It seems pretty unrealistic,given your circumstances.But don't give up your dream.
Here is how I would try to do it.
Save $3,000.It can be done in much less time,and I think the closer you get to the goal,the quicker you'll save towards it.
Once done,put $1,500 away where it remains for an emergancy.
Take your $1,500 and treat yourself to a few days Downtown in Las Vegas. As you mention Foxwoods,I assume you are in the NE and flights to Vegas will run you less than $300,sometimes as little as $200.Hotels downtown can run as little as $30 a nite,and I'll spot you a couple of 2-4-1 coupons that will cut your cost in half.Food downtown is plentiful and cheap.
With $1,000 trip bankroll,you should easily survive several days downtown,and you'll get a clearer picture of if you like playing days on end.
With any sort of luck,you'll come home having recovered most of your expenses and have a much better idea of how you want to go from there.

That is alarmingly bad advice!!!

And i am not just saying that because we have locked horns with Shadroch. I am saying that as a fellow gambler. A fellow road warrior who has experienced the hardships and temptations of the gambling life style (and i still do)

One of the most important things (which you probably already know) if you a are a gambler is what to do with your "down time". This is perharps why some of us choose to stay far from gambling states so that every trip made is carefully planned for and part of the schedule no matter what.

You want keep this as proffessional as possible and avoid any circumstance that might grey the line between professional and just out and out tom foolery.

Las vegas is designed to separate you from your many in a gazillion number of ways, some of which you indulge in, lose your money and walk away without ever realizing how stupid you are to have been duped. (And i am not talking about anything gambling related in this case.) Many a gambler will tell you stories of how they got into **** they had no business bothering with and needlessly lost money.

There are too many distractions, attractions and out and out money burning opportunities las vegas presents. And you being a worker with a regular job would probably be forced to visit on a weekend which will make it even worse for you. (this is personal but most card counters i have run into say they prefer to gamble during weekdays when crowds are sparse. The bigshots love the crowds, but you are too small a fish to have to worry about cover or getting kicked out because you won 1g on a good weekend while outright card counting. Trust me, vegas casinos dont sweat one time weekend warriors out to make 1g.

I personally have cut out the las vegas trips for now. (Will probably pick that up again in the fall when football season starts because i make about 75% of my income betting on sports) And its not because i was losing money, I had a very good run going for several months right before the NBA play offs when i experienced my first mini burn out and realized i had spent a huge portion of my profits on booze, partying, strippers, shows and ridiculously expensive clothes! (i dont drink while playing, but i over did it after my playing sessions and it took a toll on my body. On the plus side, i lost 25lbs which helped meet my newyears resolution without even stepping in a gym one time).


I have posted before that the most important thing i discovered about playing black jack is to learn to walk away. After you walk away you must find something you enjoy doing to get blackjack completely out of your head that is not overly expensive.
This is especially important if you have had a losing session. And you do not want to be in las Vegas, looking to forget a losing session because outside of locking yourself in your room and sleeping it off, you will end up burning money needlessly. You also dont want to be in las Vegas at age 22 high on Testosterone with a fat wad of cash burning a hole in your pocket from your latest winning streak at the tables.:devil:

You would be well advised to travel to foxwoods or those smaller venues closer to you. Places where you wont have to spend too much to get to, and wont have to spend much after you are done with a gambling session. Sign up with those casinos, get your comps so that they pay your room and board. (you should not worry about them having a file on you at this time. With the money you save with free room and board, combined with your lack of BR, getting noticed is the last thing on your mind because you are yet to even make it where a casino would even care about your card counting skills)
I would also guess that in your area it would be easier to find a good game than in las Vegas. (yes i know that is counter intuitive, but i find it much easier to find a good game in tunica than las vegas. But that has more to do with how easy it is to jump in my car and drive 3 minutes to the next casino park my car check out the joint before hitting the next spot. You cant do that in las vegas because of the crowds, size of casinos, distance between casinos which is probably the same distance to the garage you park your car in. But once you get there and you dont like the game, now you have to walk twice the distance to your car. So you choose to hoof it to the next spot where you find a marginally good game with a guy smoking a stinky cigar. NOw you are tired, hungry, hot, pissed off dont want to walk any more and decide to take it out on the casino!!!! Before you know it you are broke and have to walk all the way back to your hotel (or pay more money for a cab!!!):flame:


I cant tell you how to play, but i can tell you, if you are building a BR, at age 22, you should stay away from las vegas!:whip:

 

[Mimosine]

Many a gambler will tell you stories of how they got into **** they had no business bothering with and needlessly lost money.

...

i had spent a huge portion of my profits on booze, partying, strippers, shows and ridiculously expensive clothes! (i dont drink while playing, but i over did it and it took a toll on my body. On the plus side, i lost 25lbs which helped meet my newyears resolution without even stepping in a gym one time).

i'm just going to have to disagree with you on this one. i think an outing to vegas has the potential to be more profitable and more enjoyable for a red chip counter, than standing around backcounting at tables where the min bet is in excess of 1% of your BR.

i'm a highly disciplined person, and even at age 22 I was - so the concerns, excesses and pitfalls that you are subject too biggamejames, aren't necessarily concerns for everyone else.

i went on my first ever trip to vegas recently, and i didn't spend a nickle on strip clubs, getting drunk, or snorting crushed vicodin off a hooker's ass.
i went to vegas to count cards, get some experience, and make some money. nothing more, nothing less.

 

[biggamejames]

i'm a highly disciplined person, and even at age 22 I was - so the concerns, excesses and pitfalls that you are subject too biggamejames, aren't necessarily concerns for everyone else.

.

Good for you!!!:grin: (now are you able to bottle that discipline and sell it to this guy and the millions of parents across america with unruly kids his age? Because you would become and over night billionaire if you have this secret recipe that would treat millions of young adults the world over).


I am willing to bet pretty penny that this guy is no where near as disciplined as you are. Most 22 year olds are not. I am 28 and i still indulge myself.

Assuming that this kid is somehow different from 99% of the rest of the kids his age is ridiculous and it is absurd to encourage him to take unecessarily expensive trips that could result in serious disaster. I did that so he doesnt have to.:devil:

 

[Automatic Monkey]

i'm just going to have to disagree with you on this one. i think an outing to vegas has the potential to be more profitable and more enjoyable for a red chip counter, than standing around backcounting at tables where the min bet is in excess of 1% of your BR.

i'm a highly disciplined person, and even at age 22 I was - so the concerns, excesses and pitfalls that you are subject too biggamejames, aren't necessarily concerns for everyone else.

i went on my first ever trip to vegas recently, and i didn't spend a nickle on strip clubs, getting drunk, or snorting crushed vicodin off a hooker's ass.
i went to vegas to count cards, get some experience, and make some money. nothing more, nothing less.

I've got to disagree with Vegas, not completely because of the vice/lifestyle/temptation issues, but because the games just aren't that good!

Downtown absolutely sucks these days. There are only a few decent games left for anyone, the rest is just a morass of bad rules and bad pen. The outskirts have some decent games, but they involve travel time. The only player I would send to Vegas is a guy at my betting level or above to go play shoe games on the Strip, and even then, if you are going to travel anyway there are still better shoe games in the US.

Turns out, the best SD, DD, and shoe games are all someplace other than Vegas. Plus you won't have to deal with the crowds and expenses associated with Vegas these days.

 

[biggamejames]

I've got to disagree with Vegas, not completely because of the vice/lifestyle/temptation issues, but because the games just aren't that good!

Downtown absolutely sucks these days. There are only a few decent games left for anyone, the rest is just a morass of bad rules and bad pen. The outskirts have some decent games, but they involve travel time. The only player I would send to Vegas is a guy at my betting level or above to go play shoe games on the Strip, and even then, if you are going to travel anyway there are still better shoe games in the US.

Turns out, the best SD, DD, and shoe games are all someplace other than Vegas. Plus you won't have to deal with the crowds and expenses associated with Vegas these days.

Thank you very much. Atleast we agree on that point. Las vegas is needlessly expensive and good games are simply logistically hard to find. Never mind that they have more bj games going on at any point in time than any other city, its just hard to find a good game.

 

[Mimosine]

I am willing to bet pretty penny that this guy is no where near as disciplined as you are. Most 22 year olds are not. I am 28 and i still indulge myself.

points well taken.

 

[Sonny]

now are you able to bottle that discipline and sell it to this guy and the millions of parents across america with unruly kids his age?

Even if you could sell it, what makes you think the kid would take it? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...or...you can lead a 22-year-old to wisdom but you can't make him think. :grin:

-Sonny-

 

[zengrifter]

Here are some options you could consider:

• Team up with unsuspecting newbies to the blackjack scene and then rob them of their small 5k-10k bankrolls.

HEY! That may very well be a legitimate advantage play, BUT I have to protect my franchise! zg

Zengrifter Teaches "TRUTH"