BlackBelt in BalckJack - LOTS OF QUESTIONS!!!! - Guru's!!!!

Pwn

Well-Known Member
Well since this is my first post I would like to introduce myself.... I am a 20 year old male that is turning 21 in March and am ploting my short-term life goal of running Cesars Palace straight bankrupt! This goal started shortly after the end of "21" ( The movie... hehe ). Anyway I figure if that dork can make 640k I am going to be able to flip every Casino on the Vegas strip :cool: .... So instead of posting here I went and bought a book from Barnes & Nobles called "Blackbelt in Blackjack" by Arnold Snyder. Reason I decided to go with this one was because I came on these forums and it seemed to be the prime recommended choice for beginners - Anyway that was only about 6 hours ago lmao...

So now after 2 phat blunts :cool2: and a few cups of coffee here I am on page 63 with plenty of questions!!


*Red Seven vs Hi-Lo - From what I have read the Red Seven is much better all around but then again these are the words of Arnold Snyder the man who invented it lol - I do not doubt it, but just would like to get some thoughts

* He speaks of how it eliminates " true count " and guessing the amount of played cards - Would you agree?

* Also I am a begginer and the reason I have not enlightened myself pass page 63 is because he starts talking about more advanced systems until about page 111 which would be chapter 11 - My question is this.... Should I just skip to " Table Conditions " which is page 111 chapter 11?

^^ Now to help you answer the above question about me skipping take note that I have already devoured a deck of cards with the Red Seven counting system in 36.8 SECONDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nearly 4 seconds faster then someone that should have been practicing for 20+ hours and ready for Casino play!!!

** Now do not get excited lol I work with numbers all day so I was expecting to be above average - As hard as this may be to believe due to my age ( 20 years old ) I trade Futures contracts and Equities on a daily basis ( My own account so don't worry I am not going to bug anyone to buy a million shares of "google" lol ) That being said I am not doing this for a source of income nor a " means to an end " like that Ben Cambel kid from " 21 " lolll ( I love that movie ) but more or less just to prove to myself I can do it, which I already know I can but knowing and doing is what seperates the men from the boy's


All the above being said any input from you Guru's would be appreciated - Best wishes,

Pwn


WAITTTT!!! -- ONE MORE QUESTION - Sorry guys I have another quick one that I just remembered.... Obviously Hi-Lo is balanced as at the end of the deck your count is 0 and the Red Seven is unbalanced with a ending amount of +2 - He states that making the pivot point 0 on ANNNNY unblanced system all you would have to do is subtract the ending amount from 0 ( zero ) and apply that to your starting count - Would you agree?

WAIT AGAIN PLEASE, SORRY - One more question - Sorry.... Ok now I know I asked if I should skip to page 111 which would be chapter 11 but before that there is a different count called ZEN count - I am fairly confident that I might be able to learn this even though it is a more advanced system --- Should I just eliminate Red Seven and learn ZEN? Or eliminate both of them and just stick to what the MIT boys recommend which would be Hi-Lo


I know I have a lot of questions but look on the bright side - I bought a book before I started asking them hehe :grin:
 
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Pwn

Well-Known Member
lol......

What a suprise - I have another QUESTION! lol

Last one atleast until I get the above answered I promise..... It is pretty simple actually - From what I understand penetration is usually 75% ok sweet thats easy... What I do not understand is why people would jump in a 6/8 Deck game with 2-3 decks already played??? Why not just wait until the " shuffle " - From what I understand the shuffle is done after penetration and penetration is done after 75% of the cards are played in a shoe. Now obviously you want to " camouflage " yourself but why not pick a table with not very many cards left till penetration....
 
The movie.geez

amazing how people fall for movies, advertising and TV programs:rolleyes:

Choose a good count system, learn other advanced play, have a large bankroll, and find a GREAT game, I mean GREAT.. and you *may* have a chance.

The legendary AP's I know all use Hi-Lo.

Also never think this is easy or safe...it is a rough road. :eek:

CP
 

Pwn

Well-Known Member
creeping panther said:
amazing how people fall for movies, advertising and TV programs:rolleyes:

Choose a good count system, learn other advanced play, have a large bankroll, and find a GREAT game, I mean GREAT.. and you *may* have a chance.

The legendary AP's I know all use Hi-Lo.

Also never think this is easy or safe...it is a rough road. :eek:

CP
Alright, don't hate on me because I actually have the balls to tell the truth about what opened my eyes and motivated me to count cards - I already seen all the haters on the 21 ( the movie ) section and I just don't care...

As for my questions - I am sure you are more then capable to answer then in great detail but yet decided to give me a half ass " Legendary AP's go with Hi-Lo "

I just read a whole chapter on how Red Seven mathematically destroys Hi-Lo and that is all you have to say? Come on man I am serious just because I watched a movie that motivated me to take up an extra hobby in my life does not mean you have to frown apon it - Plus I also read that only a handful among 100's of thousands actually can be successful at this. So don't worry about all the rest of the 21 pousers I am different - Educate me... And you don't have to worry about my bankroll it is sufficient - Like I said previously this is not a source of income - Be nice to me because one day you might just be sitting at my table ;)... hehe



Best wishes,

Pwn
 

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
Pwn said:
Well since this is my first post I would like to introduce myself.... I am a 20 year old male that is turning 21 in March and am ploting my short-term life goal of running Cesars Palace straight bankrupt! This goal started shortly after the end of "21" ( The movie... hehe ). Anyway I figure if that dork can make 640k I am going to be able to flip every Casino on the Vegas strip :cool:

--------Dream on - This isn't going to happen

.... So instead of posting here I went and bought a book from Barnes & Nobles called "Blackbelt in Blackjack" by Arnold Snyder. Reason I decided to go with this one was because I came on these forums and it seemed to be the prime recommended choice for beginners - Anyway that was only about 6 hours ago lmao...

So now after 2 phat blunts :cool2: and a few cups of coffee here I am on page 63 with plenty of questions!!

--------Good Book


*Red Seven vs Hi-Lo - From what I have read the Red Seven is much better all around but then again these are the words of Arnold Snyder the man who invented it lol - I do not doubt it, but just would like to get some thoughts

* He speaks of how it eliminates " true count " and guessing the amount of played cards - Would you agree?

-----Red Seven is easiler to learn as no TC converstions, however HILO is more universal, so you'll find many other players using it, so easiler access to further information. TC converstions/deck estimations are essential practise if you ever want to progress beyond counting.

* Also I am a begginer and the reason I have not enlightened myself pass page 63 is because he starts talking about more advanced systems until about page 111 which would be chapter 11 - My question is this.... Should I just skip to " Table Conditions " which is page 111 chapter 11?

-----Read it all, then read it again, study it and above all practise, practise, practise, use drill software, flash cards etc.

^^ Now to help you answer the above question about me skipping take note that I have already devoured a deck of cards with the Red Seven counting system in 36.8 SECONDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nearly 4 seconds faster then someone that should have been practicing for 20+ hours and ready for Casino play!!!

----not bad, keep practising aim to get below 30 secs and also practise counting multiple cards at once - I 've never seen a 1 card BJ hand!

** Now do not get excited lol I work with numbers all day so I was expecting to be above average - As hard as this may be to believe due to my age ( 20 years old ) I trade Futures contracts and Equities on a daily basis ( My own account so don't worry I am not going to bug anyone to buy a million shares of "google" lol ) That being said I am not doing this for a source of income nor a " means to an end " like that Ben Cambel kid from " 21 " lolll ( I love that movie ) but more or less just to prove to myself I can do it, which I already know I can but knowing and doing is what seperates the men from the boy's


---------Take the movie with a pinch of salt - it's mostly fiction!

All the above being said any input from you Guru's would be appreciated - Best wishes,

Pwn


WAITTTT!!! -- ONE MORE QUESTION - Sorry guys I have another quick one that I just remembered.... Obviously Hi-Lo is balanced as at the end of the deck your count is 0 and the Red Seven is unbalanced with a ending amount of +2 - He states that making the pivot point 0 on ANNNNY unblanced system all you would have to do is subtract the ending amount from 0 ( zero ) and apply that to your starting count - Would you agree?

-------You should start counting from -2 per deck, (ie 6 decks would start at -12) and zero would be your pivot. you will then also end on zero

WAIT AGAIN PLEASE, SORRY - One more question - Sorry.... Ok now I know I asked if I should skip to page 111 which would be chapter 11 but before that there is a different count called ZEN count - I am fairly confident that I might be able to learn this even though it is a more advanced system --- Should I just eliminate Red Seven and learn ZEN? Or eliminate both of them and just stick to what the MIT boys recommend which would be Hi-Lo

-------Zen is a higher level counting system - not recommended for a beginner, start with red seven, knock out or hi/lo.

I know I have a lot of questions but look on the bright side - I bought a book before I started asking them hehe :grin:
Answers in body above
 

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
Pwn said:
What a suprise - I have another QUESTION! lol

Last one atleast until I get the above answered I promise..... It is pretty simple actually - From what I understand penetration is usually 75% ok sweet thats easy... What I do not understand is why people would jump in a 6/8 Deck game with 2-3 decks already played??? Why not just wait until the " shuffle " - From what I understand the shuffle is done after penetration and penetration is done after 75% of the cards are played in a shoe. Now obviously you want to " camouflage " yourself but why not pick a table with not very many cards left till penetration....
With a 6 deck game if you join the game after two unseen decks of cards you would basically be decreasing pen by 33% because to you, these cards are unknown and may as well not been played, if its a 75% pen game then you will basically be seeing only 42% pen - which is no good for counting!

However, if you back count the table and join the game once the count is favorable you will have your full 75% because you have seen/counted all the cards played with the added bonus that you have bet nothing when the house has the advantage. This is known as wonging.

I suggest you read through the old posts on this site, you will find most, if not all of your questions have already been answered.

best of luck.
 

Pwn

Well-Known Member
HarryKuntz said:
Answers in body above
THANK YOU!!!! I am going to ask you a question regarding your answer - What do you mean by " if I want to progress beyond counting "..... Are you talking about " shuffle tracking " etc etc? To me Hi-Lo and Red Seven are pretty much the same... Switching the two is pretty easy, as all it consists of is disregarding the red 7's and calculating TC - Which is pretty simple


Thanks again,

Pwn
 

Pwn

Well-Known Member
HarryKuntz said:
With a 6 deck game if you join the game after two unseen decks of cards you would basically be decreasing pen by 33% because to you, these cards are unknown and may as well not been played, if its a 75% pen game then you will basically be seeing only 42% pen - which is no good for counting!

However, if you back count the table and join the game once the count is favorable you will have your full 75% because you have seen/counted all the cards played with the added bonus that you have bet nothing when the house has the advantage. This is known as wonging.

I suggest you read through the old posts on this site, you will find most, if not all of your questions have already been answered.

best of luck.

You are awesome! Thank you! --- No I believe it covers it in the book.... From the Table of Contents it seems that he will be covering this with me


Thanks once again,

Pwn
 
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UK-21

Well-Known Member
Pwn,

You seem to be following a very similar path to the one I have trodden over the last 8 months. My first (serious) reference book was Mr Snyder's BBiBJ, and I have found it extremely useful in learning the many aspects of the game and developing my own approach to it. I thought the Red 7 count, and it's simplicity, was for me, until I studied the game further.

The counting aspect is fine and removes the need to do TC adjustments - when you hit zero you know you have an approx half percent edge and can ramp up the bets. But the adjustments to playing basic strategy are where it becomes problematic for me. All plays are based on basic strategy with adjustments for when there is an excess/reduction of high cards left to play. In Red 7, the number of adjustments to basic strategy (indices) are very few, and so nearly all plays (bar 6 I believe) do not alter.

The problem is that some BS plays (A2v5, A4v4) only carry a miniscule mathematical benefit and that's off of the top of a new shoe. BS doesn't take account of the shift in composition as a shoe is played out. So off the top with a low bet the risk/return relationship is marginally beneficial. But if you were to have a max bet out at a high count (8, 12 or 16 units?), for me the marginal statistical benefit doesn't justify the risk of losing an 8/12/16 unit bet in one hand. True, you could still win but for me the odds on these plays don't justify the risk. It's a personal thing.

This, combined with some other aspects, resulted in me moving over to learning Hi-Lo and developing my game around about 30 indices with the aim of reducing RoR.

If you're looking to stick with the Red 7 count, I would suggest adopting Mr Renzey's indices that he has developed for KISS 3.

As you study the game, and the maths behind it, I'm sure you'll get a feel for it and be able to answer all of your own questions. Apologies if that sounds a tad conceited.

Good luck.

Newb99
UK
 

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
Pwn said:
THANK YOU!!!! I am going to ask you a question regarding your answer - What do you mean by " if I want to progress beyond counting "..... Are you talking about " shuffle tracking " etc etc? To me Hi-Lo and Red Seven are pretty much the same... Switching the two is pretty easy, as all it consists of is disregarding the red 7's and calculating TC - Which is pretty simple


Thanks again,

Pwn
Yes, shuffle tracking and other advance plays you will encounter. The difference in skill required between red 7's & hi/low is learning deck estimation (as well as divisional skills for TC converstions). Here's some common examples where good deck estimation would come in very handy:-

1. Image your playing at a six deck shoe and 5 aces are dealt in one or two hands followed by 4 or 5 Blackjacks. You watch the cards go into the discard tray and the count plummet. How are you going to use this to your advanage?

2. Another example, you finish a shoe and the count is very high, which means there are many high cards unplayed behind the cut card - how are you going to get these cards into play?

3. or the opposite the count is very negative at the end of the shoe meaning there are many low cards behind the cut card - how are you going to keep these cards out of play?

Answer:- Hopefully, you will be able to able to follow the cards throught the shuffle, get the cut card and cut those cards to where you want them. To remember where the cards are in the discard tray and also where to cut, you will need a good eye and good deck estimation skills.

By learning a balanced count, you will also be learning deck estimation and in doing so, you will be starting the prosess of training your eye to deal with the above and many other situations.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
Pwn said:
This goal started shortly after the end of "21" ( The movie... hehe ). Anyway I figure if that dork can make 640k I am going to be able to flip every Casino on the Vegas strip :cool:
WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT????? :flame:
 

BJinNJ

Well-Known Member
Link Which Compares Different Counting Systems

You can compare the Playing Efficiency, Betting Efficiency
and Insurance Correlation for many counting systems here:

http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

Choose a count system carefully. You must play perfectly
under distracting conditions to optimize your advantage.

I'd suggest a few more books to read, although BBiBJ is one
of the best:

Professional Blackjack by Wong
Blackjack for Blood by Carlson
Blackjack Bluebook II by Renzey
Blackjack Blueprint by Blaine
Blackjack Attack 3 by Schlesinger
Million Dollar Blackjack by Uston

Pick a couple/few of these to round out your BJ education.

Take your time and practice diligently. The casinos aren't
going anywhere, but they will take your money if they can.
Knowing Basic Strategy COLD is the first step.

You might check out GameMaster's BJ School at:
http://www.gamemasteronline.com/BlackjackContent.shtml (Archive copy)

GL

BJinNJ :cool:
 

Pwn

Well-Known Member
BJinNJ said:
You can compare the Playing Efficiency, Betting Efficiency
and Insurance Correlation for many counting systems here:

http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

Choose a count system carefully. You must play perfectly
under distracting conditions to optimize your advantage.

I'd suggest a few more books to read, although BBiBJ is one
of the best:

Professional Blackjack by Wong
Blackjack for Blood by Carlson
Blackjack Bluebook II by Renzey
Blackjack Blueprint by Blaine
Blackjack Attack 3 by Schlesinger
Million Dollar Blackjack by Uston

Pick a couple/few of these to round out your BJ education.

Take your time and practice diligently. The casinos aren't
going anywhere, but they will take your money if they can.
Knowing Basic Strategy COLD is the first step.

You might check out GameMaster's BJ School at:
http://www.gamemasteronline.com/BlackjackContent.shtml (Archive copy)

GL

BJinNJ :cool:
Nice link - Very helpful will def study it a bit before I decide - Oh and that is a place where I do not need to practice much, I have known BlackJack BS for quite some time now

Thanks and good luck,

Pwn
 

Pwn

Well-Known Member
BTW - I finished my book :grin: --- BlackBelt in BlackJack is a really really really good book and I am going to read it again! lol.... He really give's you a realistic point of view with no optimistical ( lucky ) bullsh*t... Flux etc etc etc -- Really liked it, should I go and buy Professional BlackJack?


Pwn
 

rukus

Well-Known Member
Pwn said:
Ok let me shun your entire 40 million word lecture with a meer sentence ---- IF THIS SO CALLED " POT " ( CANNABIS ) IS LEGAL THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR ANY DEALERS!!!! EVERYONE WOULD JUST GROW THEIR OWN STASH, MOMO.... Nice try though - The reason we pay such premium on Cannabis is because we do not want to take the risk of growing it on our own --

You are living proof of what governmental propaganda can do to a weak minded individual



Pwn
if you are serious about BJ, maybe you should stop spending time responding to this thread and figure out the answers to your questions you just posted in another thread. probably a better use of your time...
 

standard toaster

Well-Known Member
I think your getting in to far a bit to quick... its great to see your enthusiasm but really it takes a lot of practice not just reading. Its like when you first learned to drive.. sure you could read about it all day but that didnt mean you were any good once you got in the drivers seat

36sec or whatever it was is good but i dont think thats really all that fast and may not keep up with a quick dealer... try getting it down to 11-15 sec at that point you will need to turn the deck upside down and just push them over into your other hand as you go.. you can never flip that fast... and if you can i want to see a video!

another thing is accurate deck estimation how are you with that?

also you will want to practice with music and tv and while talking and being talked too. That is one of the rather hard things to do. Keeping count and being able to talk isnt easy and that just takes time that you havent had yet distractions are a bitch at first!

def keep with it and youll be able to learn fast enough but dont take it to fast

im 20 as well and have been going to indan casinos for a while
 

Pwn

Well-Known Member
standard toaster said:
I think your getting in to far a bit to quick... its great to see your enthusiasm but really it takes a lot of practice not just reading. Its like when you first learned to drive.. sure you could read about it all day but that didnt mean you were any good once you got in the drivers seat

36sec or whatever it was is good but i dont think thats really all that fast and may not keep up with a quick dealer... try getting it down to 11-15 sec at that point you will need to turn the deck upside down and just push them over into your other hand as you go.. you can never flip that fast... and if you can i want to see a video!

another thing is accurate deck estimation how are you with that?

also you will want to practice with music and tv and while talking and being talked too. That is one of the rather hard things to do. Keeping count and being able to talk isnt easy and that just takes time that you havent had yet distractions are a bitch at first!

def keep with it and youll be able to learn fast enough but dont take it to fast

im 20 as well and have been going to indan casinos for a while

Nice - Thanks bro.... Yea 36 sec was just what I had the first time I picked up a deck --- We are coming along quite rapidly :grin:


P.S. - What happen with the rest of the pages on the thread lol?
 
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