Blackjack and quantum uncertainty

[brandone]

Okay guys. You know what this is. Schroedinger's cat can be akin to the dealer's hole card or the next card in the shoe except the cards are not as cute and furry (and possibly deceased? :cat.

AKA -- The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle -- except our particles are cards in the shoe.

How do we apply this? Just remember when we write the book to settle all blackjack books based on this principle I'm the next Thorp and whoever else contributes to the idea can be .. uhm .. Ken Smith? :grin:

READY .. SET .. DISCUSS.

Without looking and modifying the result you guys don't know if I have a serious look or a !@#$-grin look on my face!

 

[iCountNTrack]

Okay guys. You know what this is. Schroedinger's cat can be akin to the dealer's hole card or the next card in the shoe except the cards are not as cute and furry (and possibly deceased? :cat.

AKA -- The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle -- except our particles are cards in the shoe.

How do we apply this? Just remember when we write the book to settle all blackjack books based on this principle I'm the next Thorp and whoever else contributes to the idea can be .. uhm .. Ken Smith? :grin:

READY .. SET .. DISCUSS.

Without looking and modifying the result you guys don't know if I have a serious look or a !@#$-grin look on my face!

Sorry to burst your Quantum bubble, but Quantum Mechanics is of little to no use in the macroscopic realm. The Uncertainty Principle is of importance at the microscopic level when particles start to exhibit wave-like properties.
So unless you are interested in studying sub-atomic particles, stick to combinatorial analysis and simulations.

 

[Sonny]

The Uncertainty Principle is of importance at the microscopic level when particles start to exhibit wave-like properties.

My bankroll experiences wave-like properties. Does that count?

-Sonny-

 

[iCountNTrack]

My bankroll experiences wave-like properties. Does that count?

-Sonny-

Haha, only in the ZenZone :grin:

 

[sagefr0g]

i'm really not sure but...

i'm really not sure but just me maybe, the uncertainty principle has more to do with the limitation of the knowledge that we can obtain from observation and measurements than it has to do with relevance in either the macroscopic or microscopic realm. in other words, far as we know, i don't think we know that quantum like stuff can't happen in the macroscopic realm or if there is a way to deal with it in some way.
yeah we can use the uncertainty principle to tinker with stuff we know (and don't know, lmao) about in the microscopic realm but i don't know of any tinkering that's been done with macroscopic stuff. thing is we do the tinkering from the macroscopic realm down into the microscopic realm, sorta, i guess. isn't the microscopic realm a sort of a subset of the macroscopic one? i dunno, lol.
but yeah, lol, far as Schroedinger's cat and the dealer's hole card, probably that cat is dead, far as we know at this point. :cat::whip::cry:
uhmm but not to worry, how about another spin on the hole card, let's try for an analogy of Pauli's exclusion principle for hi & lo cards being in the same orbital sorta thing. :joker::whip::laugh:
maybe the dealer's hole card is like a black hole, lol, or worse maybe finding a good dealer is about as likely as quantum effects showing up in the macroscopic realm. hmm, not quite.:eyepatch::whip:

 

[iCountNTrack]

i'm really not sure but just me maybe, the uncertainty principle has more to do with the limitation of the knowledge that we can obtain from observation and measurements than it has to do with relevance in either the macroscopic or microscopic realm. in other words, far as we know, i don't think we know that quantum like stuff can't happen in the macroscopic realm or if there is a way to deal with it in some way.
yeah we can use the uncertainty principle to tinker with stuff we know (and don't know, lmao) about in the microscopic realm but i don't know of any tinkering that's been done with macroscopic stuff. thing is we do the tinkering from the macroscopic realm down into the microscopic realm, sorta, i guess. isn't the microscopic realm a sort of a subset of the macroscopic one? i dunno, lol.
but yeah, lol, far as Schroedinger's cat and the dealer's hole card, probably that cat is dead, far as we know at this point. :cat::whip::cry:
uhmm but not to worry, how about another spin on the hole card, let's try for an analogy of Pauli's exclusion principle for hi & lo cards being in the same orbital sorta thing. :joker::whip::laugh:
maybe the dealer's hole card is like a black hole, lol, or worse maybe finding a good dealer is about as likely as quantum effects showing up in the macroscopic realm. hmm, not quite.:eyepatch::whip:

The Uncertainty Principle certainly applies in the macroscopic realms, it is just that the effects are very negligible , and Newtonian physics is more than adequate to study the system. (Correspondence Principle)

 

[johndoe]

It has nothing to do with the Uncertainty Principle, but you *can* consider the unknown hole card as being in a state of superposition, where its "current" value is some makeup of all possible values, with proportions equal to the odds. Until the card is observed, the card is really (quite literally) all possible values simultaneously. Once the card is observed, the wave function collapses, and the card takes on a final known state.

Of course, this is still useless for beating the game.

 

[sagefr0g]

The Uncertainty Principle certainly applies in the macroscopic realms, it is just that the effects are very negligible , and Newtonian physics is more than adequate to study the system. (Correspondence Principle)

yeah, just read that Bose-Einstein condensate is an example, sorta thing i guess. just curious, i know i could do a search, but anyone ever heard of a uncertainty sorta thing or example known to happen in the macroscopic realm? lol, i mean heck that Bose-Einstein condensate stuff is kinda of contrived, exotic, but i mean more normal abnormal sorta of things that happen in nature, sorta thing that our normal perceptions would observe.
something maybe that would have Newtonian physics Correspondence Principle guys scratching there heads, sorta thing?

 

[sagefr0g]

It has nothing to do with the Uncertainty Principle, but you *can* consider the unknown hole card as being in a state of superposition, where it's "current" value is some makeup of all possible values, with proportions equal to the odds. Until the card is observed, the card is really (quite literally) all possible values simultaneously. Once the card is observed, the wave function collapses, and the card takes on a final known state.

Of course, this is still useless for beating the game.

would the Double-slit experiment have any meaning, lol........
like ok maybe hold your fingers out front of your eyes while watching the dealer flip over the hole card, lol. i have but not looking through my fingers, hand completely over my eyes, one time the dealer say's "ok, you can look now, you won." other times the 'news' wasn't so good, lol.
ever done that with a big bet out? lol
anyway, is this stuff why people playing slot machines cover up one of the reels with pictures of their babies, sorta thing, lol.:joker::whip:

 

[blackjack avenger]

Talk About Uncertainty

A moderator that selecitvely removes symbols that are provided by the site?:joker::whip:
especially when those same symbols are used on other posts, in the exact order:joker::whip:

Any posts that add a element of humor.

Any legitimate responses to threads or posts, such as a real world way of dealing with various uncertianties in AP play is to advise to bet conservatively.

All of this with no explanation.

5 or 6 posts removed from this thread alone? From 3 or more different posters?

 

[iCountNTrack]

A moderator that selecitvely removes symbols that are provided by the site?:joker::whip:
especially when those same symbols are used on other posts, in the exact order:joker::whip:

Any posts that add a element of humor.

Any legitimate responses to threads or posts, such as a real world way of dealing with various uncertianties in AP play is to advise to bet conservatively.

All of this with no explanation.

5 or 6 posts removed from this thread alone? From 3 or more different posters?

I have always liked your posts and they are normally very instructive, but i find your excessive use of the joke/whip smiley undermining the channeling of information to the reader.

Yes i have deleted useless posts that were not near the topic of the discussion. Which is the use of Quantum Mechanics to analyze blackjack.
As a person whose been involved with Quantum Mechanics for over 20 years. I can certify that Quantum Mechanics is of no use to a game of cards. Surely we can get all philosophical and cute with seemingly promising analogies and thoughts, but the truth is Quantum Mechanics is of no any practical or informative use with a game of Blackjack.
It is useful to analyze sub-atomic systems where the difference between particle and wave like-properties are not so evident.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It has nothing to do with the Uncertainty Principle, but you *can* consider the unknown hole card as being in a state of superposition, where its "current" value is some makeup of all possible values, with proportions equal to the odds. Until the card is observed, the card is really (quite literally) all possible values simultaneously. Once the card is observed, the wave function collapses, and the card takes on a final known state.

Of course, this is still useless for beating the game.

It is a pretty good way of visualizing it, for those of us who learned QM before AP. It might also be a good way to shut up a ploppy physicist who blames you for "taking the dealer's bust card." :laugh:

No, if theoretical physics has any place at the blackjack table, it's all within us and an ability for the human mind to access its future observations. We cannot prove that "the future" isn't already happening and that we're not already there watching it. But I think I'll try this experiment somewhere other than in the casino! Maybe with girls in the bar at the casino.

Interesting question for the dice controllers: can we prove that random atmospheric noise generated on the quantum level (air currents etc.) as well as positional uncertainty due to the momentum of the dice isn't enough to rotate a die an additional 90 degrees on any axis?

 

[sagefr0g]

I have always liked your posts and they are normally very instructive, but i find your excessive use of the joke/whip smiley undermining the channeling of information to the reader.

Yes i have deleted useless posts that were not near the topic of the discussion. Which is the use of Quantum Mechanics to analyze blackjack.
As a person whose been involved with Quantum Mechanics for over 20 years. I can certify that Quantum Mechanics is of no use to a game of cards. Surely we can get all philosophical and cute with seemingly promising analogies and thoughts, but the truth is Quantum Mechanics is of no any practical or informative use with a game of Blackjack.
It is useful to analyze sub-atomic systems where the difference between particle and wave like-properties are not so evident.

yeah bja, tell yer lawyer to put that in his pipe and smoke it, lol.

erhh anyway, somewhere on this site is a post by QFIT that mentions the uncertainty principle wherein if i recall correctly the uncertainty principle was considered in regard to something to do with his considerations while creating his software.
edit: i've tryied a search for it and found nothing, but i do recall such a post.:whip:
edit: darn it still can't find that post but i did find one where i mentioned it a long time ago, lol
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=150765&postcount=42
darn it, QFIT do you remember the post? lol.

 

[blackjack avenger]

I Don't Even Know Where to Begin

I have always liked your posts and they are normally very instructive, but i find your excessive use of the joke/whip smiley undermining the channeling of information to the reader.

Ok, you did compliment me, so I am trying to restrain myself. We are limited to 10 symbols per post. There are posts in this thread that have more symbols then my posts. It would appear you were a bit selective. The symbols did not cover any words so I don't see how they "undermine the channeling of information to the reader". A criticism I can see is that they "may" seem inflamitory. However, I once addressed this by posting that if seeing :joker::whip: bothers someone then they are not up to losing several thousand dollars nor ready to handle a rude barring or back off. I just like them; a habit now, to me they represent the player and casino, but which is which?

Yes i have deleted useless posts that were not near the topic of the discussion. Which is the use of Quantum Mechanics to analyze blackjack.
As a person whose been involved with Quantum Mechanics for over 20 years. I can certify that Quantum Mechanics is of no use to a game of cards. Surely we can get all philosophical and cute with seemingly promising analogies and thoughts, but the truth is Quantum Mechanics is of no any practical or informative use with a game of Blackjack.
It is useful to analyze sub-atomic systems where the difference between particle and wave like-properties are not so evident.

I did not start this thread, but I think the first post; mine, which you deleted answered the question very clearly and directly. If one has doubts be conservative. One of the main themes that is mentioned repeatedly here is fear of losing, doubts or overbetting. This thread was just another example, my advice to bet a fraction of kelly is very sound even if you are supremely confident in the possibilty of being an AP and your own skill.

I think the reason this site gets so many hits is because it is wide open, there is humor and lunacy along with some good advice. It would be a shame if this site lost that and with it the many personalities. However, personal attacks should be severly dealt with.

Finally, now that my pulse has lowered LOL
There is nothing wrong with some posts with a humorous aspect. Anyone who plays seriously knows that often some humor is needed.

I thought humor was a very important part of Quantum Mechanics:joker::whip:

 

[zengrifter]

Okay guys. You know what this is. Schroedinger's cat can be akin to the dealer's hole card or the next card in the shoe except the cards are not as cute and furry (and possibly deceased? :cat.

AKA -- The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle -- except our particles are cards in the shoe.

How do we apply this? Just remember when we write the book to settle all blackjack books based on this principle I'm the next Thorp and whoever else contributes to the idea can be .. uhm .. Ken Smith? :grin:

READY .. SET .. DISCUSS.

Without looking and modifying the result you guys don't know if I have a serious look or a !@#$-grin look on my face!

See ZGI page 31-32. zg

 

[Machinist]

Huh

:cool2::whip: Am i missing something here? I know its been a hot summer,,, but geeze!!!!

Machinist

 

[sagefr0g]

it might be dead but it's quantum mechanics

:cool2::whip: Am i missing something here? I know its been a hot summer,,, but geeze!!!!

Machinist

quantum mechanics, Mach!!!!!11
an we got ICNT whose worked with it for around thirty years!
me i only learned about it thirty years ago, never have been able to stop thinking about it, lol.
might learn something here!
even if it is dead, kilt like shroedingers cat probably is for blackjack and casinos.
just think all this uncertainty we deal with in the casino's and, and there is a a principle of physics, even a law of nature and a mathematical fact just as much as 1 + 1 = 2, that is called the uncertainty principle.
if nothing else it's a pointer of the physical world saying learn about probability and statistics, people of mankind, and then know better how the uncertain facets of this world you find your selves in may behave. just only beware of black swans and sneaky casino CEO's:laugh::whip:
edit: one cool thing is the uncertainty principle has only been fully understood since 1927, that's only eighty three years ago! it's relatively new knowledge and deals with something so fantastic even Einstein found it difficult to think about!

 

[assume_R]

I took a quantum mechanics class, but was always a bit confused about the uncertainty principle. The dealer slides her hole card onto the table, and hence you've observed the particles in it, and the dealer has touched (or affected) the particles in the hole card, and hence it has already been observed. Is that what the uncertainty principle deals with? I know this isn't necessarily the correct forum for physics advice but perhaps somebody knows a bit more about it than I do.

But the minute the card was created at the factory it has been observed. So when hasn't a collection of particles been observed?

 

[sagefr0g]

I took a quantum mechanics class, but was always a bit confused about the uncertainty principle. The dealer slides her hole card onto the table, and hence you've observed the particles in it, and the dealer has touched (or affected) the particles in the hole card, and hence it has already been observed. Is that what the uncertainty principle deals with? I know this isn't necessarily the correct forum for physics advice but perhaps somebody knows a bit more about it than I do.

But the minute the card was created at the factory it has been observed. So when hasn't a collection of particles been observed?

observed how many times?
and cards as they are used, what happens to them in a physical sense?:whip:
edit: what ever, never ever, ever bend them. that could mean big trouble for you (not just you, anyone). besides that isn't necessary, to beat a game, lol.

 

[sagefr0g]

physics

i believe there are some references to brownian motion stuff on bjmath.com with respect to blackjack stuff:
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/ror/ce.htm (Archive copy)
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/Betsize/kjtheory.htm (Archive copy)

for what it's worth ........