Choosing a counting system for Single deck

A

aoko

Member
#1
#1
Couple of months back I started doing lot of research on net and read lot of books to pick a counting system for single deck. Since Playing strategy for single deck is important I chose to go with AO11 and bought "Balckjack for Blood" by Bryce carlson. Practised AO11 for a month with just Ill 18 indices before hitting casinos in Reno.

I am a red chipper with spreads of 1-3 or 1-4. I didn't do any Ace side counts
and I experienced I was bit slow in TC conversion for playing strategy.I was up 60 units after playing for 12 hours last weekend.

Recently I came across www.bjstats.com (Archive copy). Using their Blackjack Counting Results Calculator for EV and SCORE I stumbled upon this.

GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA, Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3

1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03% SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)
2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58
3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92
4)AO11 with full indices
with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92

Finally assume that I play for about 100 hours with a trip to Reno every month.
There is a good chance I can do (2) without any errors , (3) with some errors
and with (4) I don't think I can remember all the 180 odd indices and use them effectively in present casino conditions.

Since I am a red chipper extra gains in using (4) over (2) will be in cents.
My confusion led to the fact that every where I read KO is not good for single deck and either A011 or H011 are good for single/double decks. But It's damn difficult to chat with PC and dealer while playing with AO11 and I am pretty
confident I can do that with KO.

To the experts out there which one should I choose?
A011 which has better gains or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?

REgards,
AOKO
 
K

kansas

Member
#2
#2
A011 which has better gains or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?

Well, since you admit you don't think you can memorize the 180+ indexes in order to get the better gains of AOII, then why not choose a counting system you can use.

You could get even greater gains, in theory, by memorizing every card played and making decisions based on the exact remaining composition of the deck, but you can't do that either, so why worry about it?

As you already know, using the AOII with I18 gains a few cents. So is it worth a couple of bucks to use a multi-level, true counted, side count required system as compared to a single-level, no true count, no side count system?

Consider also that making a wrong mistake at the wrong time with the more complicated system could negate the few cents in profit you supposedly gain.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#4
#4
**My responses are embedded -

I chose to go with AO11 and bought "Balckjack for Blood" by Bryce carlson. Practised AO11 for a month with just Ill 18 indices before hitting casinos in Reno. I am a red chipper with spreads of 1-3 or 1-4. I didn't do any Ace side counts and I experienced I was bit slow in TC conversion for playing strategy.I was up 60 units after playing for 12 hours last weekend.

**That, as I'm fond of telling people at the table, is just to give you false confidence!

**You are doing fine BUT you really don't need that 'ferrari' for putting around town. Also, the Blood betting schemes for 1-8D are WHOLEY INSUFFICIENT.

GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA, Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3

1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03% SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)
2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58
3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92

**Illustrates my point.

4)AO11 with full indices
with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92

**You CANNOT achieve this without an ace-secondary-count, Blood doesn't cover this!

Finally assume that I play for about 100 hours with a trip to Reno every month.
There is a good chance I can do (2) without any errors , (3) with some errors
and with (4) I don't think I can remember all the 180 odd indices and use them effectively in present casino conditions.

**KO full-preferred maybe your ticket... BUT, IF you are already comfortable w/AO2, you can SWAP the ace and 9 tag-values as shown below and be playing ZEN w/higher PE and BC than #3, you can even keep your current AO2 indices and add more.

tags shown 2-A

AO2: 1122210-1-20

ZEN: 11222100-2-1

To the experts out there which one should I choose?
A011 which has better gains or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?

**KO-full, or the ZEN conversion... and start using a bigger spread. zg
 
A

aoko

Member
#5
#5
Thanks for your response zg.

>> My responses are embedded.

I chose to go with AO11 and bought "Balckjack for Blood" by Bryce carlson. Practised AO11 for a month with just Ill 18 indices before hitting casinos in Reno. I am a red chipper with spreads of 1-3 or 1-4. I didn't do any Ace side counts and I experienced I was bit slow in TC conversion for playing strategy.I was up 60 units after playing for 12 hours last weekend.

**That, as I'm fond of telling people at the table, is just to give you false confidence!

>>I know its just positive varience I had experienced. Its got nothing to do
with what count I am using.

**You are doing fine BUT you really don't need that 'ferrari' for putting around town. Also, the Blood betting schemes for 1-8D are WHOLEY INSUFFICIENT.

>>I am using betting spreads wrt to TC's rather than the one given in BJFB.

GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA, Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3

1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03% SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)
2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58
3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92

**Illustrates my point.

4)AO11 with full indices
with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92

**You CANNOT achieve this without an ace-secondary-count, Blood doesn't cover this!

>> I can add ACE side count later If I decide to stick with AO11???

Finally assume that I play for about 100 hours with a trip to Reno every month.
There is a good chance I can do (2) without any errors , (3) with some errors
and with (4) I don't think I can remember all the 180 odd indices and use them effectively in present casino conditions.

**KO full-preferred maybe your ticket... BUT, IF you are already comfortable w/AO2, you can SWAP the ace and 9 tag-values as shown below and be playing ZEN w/higher PE and BC than #3, you can even keep your current AO2 indices and add more.

tags shown 2-A

AO2: 1122210-1-20

ZEN: 11222100-2-1

>> I am comfortable with just counting AO11 but not with TC conversion and correlating it to indices. Diff between ZEN and AO11 is with Ace side count only other than that both are similar. If I have to choose between ZEN and AO11
I will stick with AO11 since I spent a month practising it.

To the experts out there which one should I choose?
A011 which has better gains or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?

**KO-full, or the ZEN conversion... and start using a bigger spread. zg

>> Since my bankroll is 2k I can't go beyond 1-3 or 1-4. What's up with
this KO bashing on some websites which is a bit of concern for me to choose KO.
It took about 1 month for me to count(Ao11) down single to get some reasonable speed but with KO it took about 30 mins. Finally how much time do I need at tables to get reasonable confidence and speed with AO11.

Thanks,
AOKO
 
A

aoko

Member
#7
#7
Where are you playing?

Zg, I play in Reno. Atlantis,peppermill,Boom town and some other casinos in nearby Sparks.

I am slowly leaning towardS AO11. What the heck? If I have to go to KO for some reasons its peice of cake.

I need your advice regarding which indices are important.

Apart from Ill 18 I would like to rememeber all the positive indices
in the following order.

Hard standing
Hard doubling
Soft doubling
Pair splitting.

Any suggestions please let me know.

THanks,
AOKO
 
L

lucky

Member
#8
#8
s.d NOT the same these days especially with the added negative rules.
Most pros avoiding sd for other quality games with stay 17,doa,
and double on two,and surrender.You will lack these all
these positive rules,and get serious heat.
 
A

aoko

Member
#10
#10
zg, In Reno I don't think there are any great double deck or shoe games
that luck has mentioned. For me best bet for now is single deck, H17 DOA

-aoko
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#11
#11
Re: Choosing a counting (longer)

In Reno there are several good 1Ds, the ones you mentioned, BUT also the Sundowner w/D9 and push21, select D10 tables like HarrahsHL(*) - D10 1Ds require deeper pene and/or bigger spread but beatable. The SilverLegacy DOA 2Ds were great last time I looked, and I'd even play the D9 and D10 2Ds there and elswhere with the right spread and/or pene. In other words, even in Reno 1D DOA is NOT a panacea.

Btw, does that Alamo truckstop still offer that great 1D DAS,LS game?

THE MOST IMPORTANT INFO I GAVE YOU WAS THAT WITHOUT A ACE-SECONDARY COUNT YOU CANNOT DERIVE THE POWER YOU SEEK FROM AO2. Further AO2 is slightly skewed because of its incorporation of 9s in the primary. Therefore, swap the Ace and 9 tag values NOW or switch to KO full-preferred and don't look back. zg

(*) In fall of 2000 I had the unexpected pleasure of catching the mythic Ian Anderson in usual-extreme form at Reno HarrahsHL D10 - he was playing 3hands consistent and getting 4rounds consistent 3x$300 to 3x$900 (ie, 80% pene, no heat, 1-3) his 'act was that of an aged British rock-mgr type, Ozzie Osbourne accent and dutch-boy haircut w/an Austin Powers-type ruffles shirt/suit.
 
A

aoko

Member
#12
#12
Re: Choosing a counting

>>THE MOST IMPORTANT INFO I GAVE YOU WAS THAT WITHOUT A ACE-SECONDARY COUNT YOU CANNOT DERIVE THE POWER YOU SEEK FROM AO2. Further AO2 is slightly skewed because of its incorporation of 9s in the primary. Therefore, swap the Ace and 9 tag values NOW or switch to KO full-preferred and don't look back. zg

ZG, If I swap Ace and 9 tag values can I still use AO11 indices?

Thanks,
AOKO
 
A

aoko

Member
#14
#14
Re: Choosing a counting(question to zg)

>> If I swap Ace and 9 tag values can I still use AO11 indices? <<
-----------------------
YES! zg

In that case the true count has to be at half deck level rather than an full deck. I think ZEn true count conversion is at half deck level and AO11 is at full deck. What do you think zg assuming that I use ZEN with AO11 indices.

If it's possible can you mail me ZEN indices for single(H17) and double decks?

Thanks,
AOKO
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#15
#15
Re: Choosing a TC-CALIBRATION

>>In that case the true count has to be at half deck level rather than an full deck. I think ZEn true count conversion is at half deck level and AO11 is at full deck. What do you think zg assuming that I use ZEN with AO11 indices.<<
----------------

Actually, the originalZEN was a 1DTC, whereas the revisedZEN is a 1/4DTC. I personally use a 1DTC w/myZEN - if your AO2 i# are calibrated for 1DTC then use a 1DTC. In the final analysis the calibration of a given system's i# to a particular deck-levelTC is a personal matter, notwithstanding the authoring party's predelection.

--> if your AO2 i# are calibrated for 1DTC then use a 1DTC <-- zg
 
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