count on a six deck

[runforcover]

hi everyone.
I am new to card counting and this forum. I have been practicing counting at home for quite a while now and i am willing to move onto the casinos. I use the hi lo method as it gets me the least amount of counting errors i make.
When counting a deck i wait for +3 . But what shall i wait for in a six deck? (obviously there are more cards in a six deck)
At the moment i have been using the count +4/+5 when practising in casinos.

It has actually been working out quite nicely. First time i did it i went from 20 to 80. Second time from 40 to 250.(i lost it all in the last 10 mins because i got tempted into gambling .. its so easy guys to get tempted!!)
Only problem is i am not being very descreet. Spending 5 hours in the casino and not making a minimum bet at all when the count is low. I just 'watch for entertaiment'. And make a bet once in a while.


So what count should i use

 

[21forme]

From your question, it seems to me that you don't understand counting and RC vs. TC. Do you have any books on the subject?

 

[runforcover]

nope just been using the internet mostly.

well lets say we are talking about a single deck.

true count would be the count of the current round. (all cards on the table at the time)
and the running count the count from the begginning of the shuffle.

(please correct me if i am wrong)....
..
well on a single deck as i understand it its good to have an rc of about +3 or higher

but what happens on a six deck. in casinos i have been using +4 or +5 and it was working ok.
but surely its 6 decks. i need to multiply +3 (singly deck) by 6 =18
but having a rc of 18 is impossible i found . so i started using +4 or +5 in casinos . what is a good count to use in six decks ? sorry if this is really a stupid question!?

 

[mathman]

I'm sure one of the book guys will give you a better answer than mine but the running count is the total of everything you've seen so far. The true count (which is the one that governs your decisions) is your running count divided by the number of decks left to be played. So yes you are waiting for +18 divided by 5 decks equals +3 to me...JtMM

 

[runforcover]

ok just realised the true count is the rc/decks remaining.... How do i tell how many decks are remaining though ? keeping track of another count ???

i guess i must have been quite lucky since i have been only playing on RCs . and the RC counts of +4 that i have been using must have been coming up quite towards the end.

so how can i tell how many cards are left? is it really bad to play just on rc ?

 

[Martin Gayle]

so how can i tell how many cards are left? is it really bad to play just on rc ?

Almost all of us have to estimate. This can be tricky at first and if you are off it will make your entire strategy off. The best practice is to get ahold of 6 or 8 decks and practice estimating at home.

Look at the discard rack and estimate how many decks are left to play by estimating how many have been used.

If you use an unbalanced count (Red 7, KO) you do not have to estimate count and can use only the RC. Using RC with Hi-Lo just doesn't work.

 

[mathman]

Pay attention during the shuffle. When the dealer breaks down the pile into two stacks make note of how tall three decks are. Estimate how tall one deck is from what you've seen during the shuffle. Pay attention to the discard rack during the game and continually adjust your count in your head. When in doubt choose your lower estimate....JtMM
.

 

[runforcover]

thank you martin. and thanks mathman . great answers!!

ok i made this little table just now so its not necessary to convert the rc into the tc.


6decks remaining .+18
5decks remaining .+15
4decks remaining .+12
3decks remaining .+9
2decks remaining .+6

isn't this method easier ? that way you dont need to divide. instead you bet on different rcs depending on how many cards are remaining in the deck.

Also ... when i was counting i don't ever recall the number going above +9

Edit : This table is equal to +3 on a normal single deck

 

[runforcover]

so what do you guys think about that little table ? also how come i never say a count of above +9 ??

 

[Renzey]

I use the hi lo method as it gets me the least amount of counting errors i make. When counting a single deck i wait for +3 . But what shall i wait for in a six deck? (obviously there are more cards in a six deck) At the moment i have been using the count +4/+5 when practising in casinos. It has actually been working out quite nicely. So what count should i use

The whole idea of any count system is to bet and play according to the proportional high-to-low ratio of remaining cards. If you were say, one deck into that six deck shoe, a running count of +10 would give you the same proportional high-to-low ratio of remaining cards as a +4 running count would when you're four decks into it. That's because in both cases, there would be two extra high cards available for each deck that is left. So the right thing to do is divide your running count by the number of decks that remain. That measurement is called the true count and gives you the proportional high-to-low composition of the remaining pack.. In the typical game, you need a +1.5 true count to have enough of an advantage to warrant raising your bets.

If truing up your count seems too cumbersome for you, you could still stick with the Hi/Lo system and bet according to your raw running count by realizing that after the first deck, you need +8, after the second you need +6, after the third you need +4 and after the fourth you need only +3. That's +8, +6, +4 and +3 at the one, two, three and four deck marks in the discard tray.

If all that still seems rather tricky, then you should switch to an unbalanced system such as Red 7, KISS or KO. Their unbalanced structure tends to accomplish that truing up function for you automatically (with negligible to modest innacuracy). Then you would always raise your bet (or jump in) at the same running count. With KISS for example, you begin your count at "9" (to avoid juggling negative numbers), and whenever the running count reaches "20", your true count will always be somewhere between +1.3 and +1.8 -- thus, you know it's time to go on the betting offensive (as well as play some of your hands differently).

 

[mathman]

You'll find very often that the RC just doesn't go high enough earlier in the shoe. Sometimes it barely stays above zero. A perfectly shuffled deck will be a running count of zero, theoreticly. You are waiting for the times it goes out of whack in your favor, then it's time to strike. Patience is needed.
.

 

[runforcover]

Thanks renzey very nice post. What method do you personally prefer ?

I think i will stick with method 2 in your post To use the hi lo method. but jump in(or bet) at dififerent rc counts.. i think dividing counts will make things confusing.

also thanks for telling that the count of +1.5 is when i want to play. i always had the impression its the minimum of +3

 

[runforcover]

You'll find very often that the RC just doesn't go high enough earlier in the shoe. Sometimes it barely stays above zero. A perfectly shuffled deck will be a running count of zero, theoreticly. You are waiting for the times it goes out of whack in your favor, then it's time to strike. Patience is needed.
.

yes i think thats it !!

 

[Renzey]

Thanks renzey very nice post. What method do you personally prefer ?

I think i will stick with method 2 in your post to use the hi lo method, but jump in(or bet) at dififerent rc counts.
Thanks for telling that the count of +1.5 is when i want to play. i always had the impression its the minimum of +3

I use a very old, balanced, rather complex count (Wong Halves), but most players I have tutored learned the unbalanced KISS III -- having started at KISS I or KISS II and eventually upgraded from there.

At a +3 TC, you'll typically have an advantage of about +1.2%. At +1.5 TC, you usually have about +.35% -- a good entry point.

 

[1357111317]

You'll find very often that the RC just doesn't go high enough earlier in the shoe. Sometimes it barely stays above zero. A perfectly shuffled deck will be a running count of zero, theoreticly. You are waiting for the times it goes out of whack in your favor, then it's time to strike. Patience is needed.
.

I'm not sure if thats correct mathman. A perfectly shuffled deck will be completely random. And a completely random deck with 1.5 pen using zen will only have a TC of zero 20% of the time.

 

[mathman]

Hi 1357etc.

Yes maybe "perfectly shuffled" was not the best choice of words but I think you get my meaning. Just not that uncommon to see a nothing, boring count. Talk to ya on the chat...JtMM
.

 

[runforcover]

I use a very old, balanced, rather complex count (Wong Halves), but most players I have tutored learned the unbalanced KISS III -- having started at KISS I or KISS II and eventually upgraded from there.

At a +3 TC, you'll typically have an advantage of about +1.2%. At +1.5 TC, you usually have about +.35% -- a good entry point.

ok thanks i will try and have a go at playing at +1.5 TC. An advantage of .35% doesn't seem that much. Could you explain to me how the advantage percentages work.

 

[embryostud]

Get out

hi everyone.
I am new to card counting and this forum. I have been practicing counting at home for quite a while now and i am willing to move onto the casinos. I use the hi lo method as it gets me the least amount of counting errors i make.
When counting a deck i wait for +3 . But what shall i wait for in a six deck? (obviously there are more cards in a six deck)
At the moment i have been using the count +4/+5 when practising in casinos.

It has actually been working out quite nicely. First time i did it i went from 20 to 80. Second time from 40 to 250.(i lost it all in the last 10 mins because i got tempted into gambling .. its so easy guys to get tempted!!)
Only problem is i am not being very descreet. Spending 5 hours in the casino and not making a minimum bet at all when the count is low. I just 'watch for entertaiment'. And make a bet once in a while.


So what count should i use

Okay, let me start by saying I mean this the best way possible... GET OUT OF A CASINO NOW- Virtual or real, get out. You know enough to be very dangerous to your self, but not enough to be helpful to yourself. Take a couple of weeks to do research on the proper application of the count system you are using. If you can count proficiently, your 1/3 of the way there, but missing large bits of the puzzle. You really need to educate yourself further before playing even 1 more "real hand". I won't go into everthing that's missing or right, but trust me, do MORE reading on the count system you are using and the others referenced here.

Regardsing the number of cards played- The easies way to do this, isn't to try starting off iwth a negative count and count it up, but to get your self a discard rack like they use in the casino (e-bay), use a sharpie to mark whole and half decks on the edge of it with retired casino cards and practice.

You are in a dangerous place right now. Stop step back and educate and practice more before you go back into live play, the money you spend educating yourself will be small compared to what you can lose knowing part of what you need to know. Best of Luck...

 

[Sonny]

The Frequently Asked Questions thread and Free Couting Resources thread at the top of this forum will answer just about all of your questions. A few good books will also give you a solid foundation and enough knowledge to start practicing in a casino.

-Sonny-

 

[Renzey]

Could you explain to me how the advantage percentages work?

Speaking in round numbers, for the Hi/Lo system your EV improves by about .5% for every 1 point rise in the true count. So, beginning with a typical six deck basic strategy house advantage of .5% (another variable), you'd theoretically reach "break even" at a +1 true count.

But wait! A rise in true count is not the sole source of your advantage. Index plays also contribute, although modestly by comparison. So at a +1.5 true count, your basic EV improves by about .75% due to the TC rise (from -.50% to +.25%), but you also gain about an additional .10% due to a half dozen or so index plays (hands that can be played more efficiently than basic strategy at that point). That brings your net EV to about +.35% at a +1.5 TC.

Now then, your advantage continues to rise somewhat linearly at about the rate of .5% per each 1 point rise in TC, and by the time you reach a TC of about +4, you've also picked up about .2% total gain from 20 or so index plays (with a six deck shoe and the Hi/Lo count).

Variables abound in the working mechanics if this, but that's about it in a nutshell.