cover play
- Thread starter TrueCount
- Start date
I would need an extremely strong reason to believe that the following exchange would happen.
"I think that guy splashing blacks all over the table when all the aces and tens came out might have been counting."
"No, he's playing $5/hand at the CSM the next pit over. He's clearly not a threat."
"I think that guy splashing blacks all over the table when all the aces and tens came out might have been counting."
"No, he's playing $5/hand at the CSM the next pit over. He's clearly not a threat."
they usually will not be playing those games "naked", they will usually use some type of coupon or promotion to reduce or eliminate the negative EV. that said, some do like to just unwind with a low negative EV game like VP.TrueCount said:
you will never catch me at a csm table for cover, as all it does is encourage casinos to keep using them if they see those tables full.
Pro21
Well-Known Member
We don't call those people APs. We call them degenerates. Many people like to fool themselves by saying they are playing these games for cover, but they really play them because they like to gamble.TrueCount said:
You find this much more often in the poker world than the BJ world. I could never understand how great poker players like Phil Ivey of Stuey Ungar could blow millions of dollars at craps or sports betting.
WestCoast21
Active Member
I would think that the fact you're only betting 1 unit the entire time on the CSM would look a little strange. It's pretty obvious if you jump off a good game after betting a 1-6 or 1-8 spread, then suddenly you never raise your bet over 1 unit on the CSM game. The cover aspect would probably be offset by giving away that you only raise bets on good counts (i.e. not at all on a CSM).TrueCount said:
This is my first post by the way, so go easy on me guys.
Jack_Black
Well-Known Member
I don't understand this concept of cover plays. I don't use them, no one at the BJ bash I met use them, and I fail to see the reasoning behind using money and losing money as a way to convince the casino you're not a threat. First off, I hate the SD that comes with playing BJ. Why not use that cover? Leave at a negative session and make it clear to the PC that they got you(this time) Kick and scream, and ask for a dinner comp. But when you win, win quietly. Nobody likes a sore winner, and this case, it holds particularly true.
See how peeps on this thread talk about Gamblers over APs? Especially famous gamblers, and yet they're still allowed to play? Act like a gambler, and they'll welcome you with an open invitation. Act like an AP, and you'll only get an open invitation to an ass kicking. Read "burning the tables in Vegas" by Ian Anderson if you want to know more about how more effective it is to carry yourself as the average gambler instead of all these pointless ideas of cover plays, playing -EV games, etc.
See how peeps on this thread talk about Gamblers over APs? Especially famous gamblers, and yet they're still allowed to play? Act like a gambler, and they'll welcome you with an open invitation. Act like an AP, and you'll only get an open invitation to an ass kicking. Read "burning the tables in Vegas" by Ian Anderson if you want to know more about how more effective it is to carry yourself as the average gambler instead of all these pointless ideas of cover plays, playing -EV games, etc.
kewljason
Well-Known Member
You are contradicting yourself here Jack Black. You state that you don't use nor understand the concept of cover play. Of losing money to convince the casino that you are not a threat. And then you praise Anderson's "Burning the tables".Jack_Black said:
The whole concept of the ultimat gambit is cover! He reduces his edge in the name of camouflauge, often playting negative EV games such as craps for cover!
WestCoast21
Active Member
I personally don't play anything other than blackjack and would never play a negative EV game unless it's to hang out with a chick. Even then it's a big "maybe". I think there's a lot better methods for covering your ass out there.
My favorite would be making occasional intentional mistakes at the table like not hitting a soft 18 versus an Ace. The cost of a move like that is very minimal. I believe it's like 15 cents on a $25 bet. I only do it if I can ask the pit boss what the correct play is first. Then I can put it in his face that I'm not playing correctly. Of course I would only make the mistake if it were a small bet.
Back to the topic...
You may end up looking like an obvious card counter playing negative EV games since you'll be betting so small. Who goes from betting hundreds on blackjack every hand to betting $5 on craps or roulette. That looks ridiculous in my opinion.
My favorite would be making occasional intentional mistakes at the table like not hitting a soft 18 versus an Ace. The cost of a move like that is very minimal. I believe it's like 15 cents on a $25 bet. I only do it if I can ask the pit boss what the correct play is first. Then I can put it in his face that I'm not playing correctly. Of course I would only make the mistake if it were a small bet.
Back to the topic...
You may end up looking like an obvious card counter playing negative EV games since you'll be betting so small. Who goes from betting hundreds on blackjack every hand to betting $5 on craps or roulette. That looks ridiculous in my opinion.
kewljason
Well-Known Member
Generally what is recorded is your average bet. So if you are spreading 1-8, say $25 to $200, they record something to the effect that you played for 30 minutes with an average bet of $50 or $75 dollars. So if you then play another game where you only wager 1 unit every hand, your average bet would be $25. So it doesn't look nearly as obvious as you think. Having play on other games recorded (even just a few hands or spins of VP) looks much more like a regular casino patron, than having nothing except session after session of blackjack. However, if your record is being examined as closely as you suggust, you are probably already raised suspicion.WestCoast21 said:
Jack_Black
Well-Known Member
I never liked that part of the book, as a matter of fact, it never made sense. Just like cover plays. A quick re read shows that he talks about doubling 10v10 as a cover play. Wtf? that's an index play. Why not only use that play when the count dictates it? You get to look like a ploppy and you are playing correctly. He also talks about always taking insurance. Again, wtf? I always just play like I'm some kinda psychic and take my time thinking about taking insurance when the count calls for it. Then I stare at the dealer trying to figure if he has some sort of tell. I say something dumb like...Do you got a 10 there? they usually play coy, or say something dumb back. Then I say something dumb like, "I think you got it" and take the insurance. Besides all of that, I use Hi lo and hi opt 1, neither have perfect insurance correlation, so I'm bound to be wrong on insurance calls.kewljason said:You are contradicting yourself here Jack Black. You state that you don't use nor understand the concept of cover play. Of losing money to convince the casino that you are not a threat. And then you praise Anderson's "Burning the tables".
It's okay to disagree with an author on certain points. Namely, the Ultimate gambit chapter discussing his analysis of cheap cover plays citing Blackjack attack as his reference for coming up with the chapter. I don't think anyone with an individual mind would take every last statement he makes and utilizes it. He has pages and pages of different strategies in there, all to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't like his stereotyping of asian gamblers, and to play like a loud superstitious asian gambler. But it is effective, and it essentially costs nothing to play like that. he has a little bit in there about associating yourself with a whale ploppy. A good idea, but not pragmatic for most APs. I do know whales, but they're not at all interested in gambling. Then there are some whales who show interest if I teach them how to beat BJ. I have a feeling that we would stick out like a sore thumb if we tried that strategy though.
moo321
Well-Known Member
I'd recommend Video Poker for cover. Most places have jacks or better that only sucks about .5%, which can get close to even with cashback. Many places also have games better than jacks or better.
I can think of two incidents where I believe was saved from heat by playing non-blackjack games. In one case, I hit a +EV video poker game, and in another I was playing a carny game with an advantage. I think I was saved both times when they looked at my history and thought "he's not a counter, just yesterday he played video poker for 10 hours!".
I can think of two incidents where I believe was saved from heat by playing non-blackjack games. In one case, I hit a +EV video poker game, and in another I was playing a carny game with an advantage. I think I was saved both times when they looked at my history and thought "he's not a counter, just yesterday he played video poker for 10 hours!".