CVD: Impact of index plays on EV

matt21

Well-Known Member
hi everyone, i have come across an issue in my play analysis.

in running simulations on CVD i have to date been checking 'Stanford Wong - Complete Hi-Lo' as the playing strategy. In practice, i actually dont use a complete set of indices. Realistically I use I18 plus a few others.

I have never really paid much attention to the fact that I dont actually use a full set of indices, as i thought that the small number of indices that i do use contribute a large proportion of the overall EV benefit resulting from index play (I read this in the FAQ section).

However in running the simulations again, I have realised that the EV plunges dramatically when i actually attach my own playing strategy - a playing strategy that reflects my basic strategy play plus the 20-30 index plays. Example:
A: 6d shoe game, 73% pen, S17, DAS, NS, 2 other players at the table, 4 shoes per hour, given bet ramp, Complete High-Low - win rate of 1.88 units (what i have been using thus far!)
B: 6d shoe game, 73% pen, S17, DAS, NS, 2 other players at the table, 4 shoes per hour, given bet ramp, BS + 20-30 index plays - win rate of 0.62 units

Hence the only difference between A and B is the checked playing strategy.

My actual playing results in my various playing conditions have been very close to the theoretical win rates - of course that doesnt prove anything as I have only played about 650 hours - but it had given my some comfort that i had done my modelling correctly.

Basically with results A, counting is a profitable venture. With results B - forget it :(

Is it likely that I have made a mistake somewhere?
Can anyone share some insight?
Any comments would be appreciated!
 

sabre

Well-Known Member
There's a mistake somewhere. Those additional index plays are nowhere near that valuable.

I would recheck the two strategies you are comparing side by side.
 

matt21

Well-Known Member
sabre said:
There's a mistake somewhere. Those additional index plays are nowhere near that valuable.

I would recheck the two strategies you are comparing side by side.
thanks for your comment Sabre!
i went back into CVD and deleted the custom playing strategy that I had created and then created another new playing strategy from scratch. The new one seems to give more accurate/realistic results. So I think I will continue to count for now :grin:

I also did some further reading on the value of index plays in Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack. It seems that the I18 give about 90% of the benefit in index plays in shoe games. And within the I18, insurance, 16vT and 15vT make up 60% of the benefit of the I18.
13 v 3 is the lowest rank I18 index play contributing 1.1% of the total I18 benefit. Does this mean that any index play not ranked in the I18 is going to be worth less than the 13v3 index play?

Where can I find the value of individual non-I18 index plays? Particular books, online?

Talk about application of the 80/20 (Pareto's) principle!

18 index plays out of 100+ contribute 90% of the value,
within the 18 indeces 3 make up 60%

Thus say out of 100 index plays, the top 3 make up 54%, the next 15 make up 36%, and the other 92+ make up 10% - how skewed is that!!
 
Last edited:

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
matt21 said:
hi everyone, i have come across an issue in my play analysis.

in running simulations on CVD i have to date been checking 'Stanford Wong - Complete Hi-Lo' as the playing strategy. In practice, i actually dont use a complete set of indices. Realistically I use I18 plus a few others.

I have never really paid much attention to the fact that I dont actually use a full set of indices, as i thought that the small number of indices that i do use contribute a large proportion of the overall EV benefit resulting from index play (I read this in the FAQ section).

However in running the simulations again, I have realised that the EV plunges dramatically when i actually attach my own playing strategy - a playing strategy that reflects my basic strategy play plus the 20-30 index plays. Example:
A: 6d shoe game, 73% pen, S17, DAS, NS, 2 other players at the table, 4 shoes per hour, given bet ramp, Complete High-Low - win rate of 1.88 units (what i have been using thus far!)
B: 6d shoe game, 73% pen, S17, DAS, NS, 2 other players at the table, 4 shoes per hour, given bet ramp, BS + 20-30 index plays - win rate of 0.62 units

Hence the only difference between A and B is the checked playing strategy.

My actual playing results in my various playing conditions have been very close to the theoretical win rates - of course that doesnt prove anything as I have only played about 650 hours - but it had given my some comfort that i had done my modelling correctly.

Basically with results A, counting is a profitable venture. With results B - forget it :(

Is it likely that I have made a mistake somewhere?
Can anyone share some insight?
Any comments would be appreciated!
Using full indices will increase your EV by about 0.16% if you are playing at all counts vs I18, if you are backcounting the effect is much less noticeable.
 
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