Electronic Devices allowed in UK Casinos?
- Thread starter karl
- Start date
UK-21
Well-Known Member
It depends what they do. If they interefere with a game or alter it in anyway it would be cheating. If all they do is process information that is readily available, ie could calculate the %age probability of winning the hand you've been dealt in three card poker, it'd probably be OK (not illegal). I think though you'd probably be asked not to use it, and if you pressed the point would politely be shown the door and have your membership terminated.
moo321
Well-Known Member
That was a court ruling. But the statute is modeled after the ones in Nevada. I'm not saying everything is exactly the same, but most jurisdictions model themselves after Nevada.newb99 said:Everyone? I think, sir, you over estimate the influence of the Stars and Stripes. If that is in fact the case, how is it that casinos in AC are not free to bar skilled players as those in LV do? A small matter of a legal ruling I believe?
UK-21
Well-Known Member
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure we don't have any statues regarding cheating in casinos here in the UK - if someone was caught, and the crown prosecution service did decide to press charges, I'm not even sure what the incumbent would be charged with? Something around attempting to obtain a financial gain through fraudulent means perhaps?moo321 said:
I'm not sure though that charges would be pressed. In the UK gambling carries a very different amount of weight within law from that of Nevada and probably lots of the other States of the Union. Debts incurred through gambling, or for the purpose of gambling, are not enforceable in the civil courts (UK contract law doesn't cover any such agreements), whereas in Nevada I believe that unpaid "markers" (loans made for the specific purposes of gambling?) are treated in the same way as dishonoured cheques - if it can be proven that they were made with an intent not to honour them, then a criminal offence has been committed. In the UK charges relating to writing rubber cheques are usually along the lines of attempting to obtain good or services by dishonest means. They key bit here is goods or services. Writing a rubber cheque for chips in a casino wouldn't result in criminal prosecution as in the eyes of the law no criminal offence had been committed. Hence the reason that an Arab gentleman was able to walk away from his debts to a London casino of several million ££s not so long ago.
A personal view, but I don't think anyone would face criminal charges if they were caught using a gadget of sorts to increase their chances of winning, unless there was some sort of collusion with casino staff (which would then make it a case of conspiring to defraud).
But I take the point - don't do it in the States.
moo321
Well-Known Member
The rules about gambling contracts are very different across the US. Where I live, gambling contracts are not enforceable, and in fact you can sue to recover money lost gambling.newb99 said:
But, the bottom line is I wouldn't take a computer into a casino anywhere in the world. Not without doing a lot of research and making sure it's legal.
UK-21
Well-Known Member
Seems a bit of a legal contradiction? If you raise a marker with the intent of never paying it and, lose all the chips gambling, you've committed a criminal offence. But if you raise a marker and win, the casinos are under no legal obligation to exchange your chips for cash, and could still insist on the marker being settled. Failing to do so could leave you open to prosecution for failing to honour it. No wonder lawyers in the US all have a field day with their fees?moo321 said:
Back to the UK, an interesting conundrum is the difference between stealing chips from a table, and obtaining them by deception via writing a cheque you know will never be honoured, and then taking them straight over to the cashier and exchanging them for cash. The second has been proven through case law to be a civil matter, and is not punishable in any way. I suspect the first would be dealt with as theft which is a criminal offence. I think the key point to be argued here is that the first is being done without the consent of the casino, whilst the second is being done with consent. Consent to provide chips on tick means that you will carry all of the risks of doing so. Also in the first case, at what point an offence is committed - stealing plastic chips is a minor matter, but as soon as you attempted to cash them in the theft would be of the magnitude of their cash value. I suppose if you were caught you could argue that you never intended to cash them in - ever - a mute arguement in front of a judge though (if it ever got to a court).
All theoretical stuff.
Going back to the original question - the short answer is don't do it.
SuperTrump
Active Member
Anyone know if you could 'get away' with one of these in a UK casino?
http://www.blackjackcounter.com/
http://www.blackjackcounter.com/
Attachments
UK-21
Well-Known Member
If I managed a casino, I'd give 'em out free at the door. Pretty sure they'd increase the margins on the tables. Seriously though, would you really use one even if it didn't mean risking a complete ban
I think their sole purpose is to separate greedy, lazy individuals from some of their cash.
I think their sole purpose is to separate greedy, lazy individuals from some of their cash.
HarryKuntz
Well-Known Member
Newb99 is correct on this issue, It is NOT illegal to use a computer/device in a UK casino as long as the device does not interfere or alter the outcome of the game. For example. magnets on a roulette wheel would be illegal, whereas a roulette computer predicting where the ball will land would not.
Moo123 - US laws have absolutely nothing to do with UK laws, what happens in Nevada may as well happen on the Moon.
SuperTrump, yes you could legally use the device pictured, however it only keeps a running count. If you going to go to the trouble of using a computer, risk getting thrown out, chips/money confiscated, Police hassle (believe me, they would still be called incase you were up to illegal activities) legal battles and whatever else the casino try to throw at you, then you may as well use a decent computer and pull a large advantage. I hear there's a company in London that manufactures good quality roulette prediction computers that look like mobile phones for a few thousand quid each, they are supposed to be very good. However, you need to master ball measurements, so you also need to buy a casino grade roulette wheel so you can practise. You'll also need to be able to place many neighbouring bets very quickly, so you'll also need to be a master with both table and wheel number locations. Sorry can't help with BJ computers but I would imagine that anybody offering to sell "casino beating computers/devices" is 99 times out of 100 either a con artist or selling a worthless product (as you pictured).
Moo123 - US laws have absolutely nothing to do with UK laws, what happens in Nevada may as well happen on the Moon.
SuperTrump, yes you could legally use the device pictured, however it only keeps a running count. If you going to go to the trouble of using a computer, risk getting thrown out, chips/money confiscated, Police hassle (believe me, they would still be called incase you were up to illegal activities) legal battles and whatever else the casino try to throw at you, then you may as well use a decent computer and pull a large advantage. I hear there's a company in London that manufactures good quality roulette prediction computers that look like mobile phones for a few thousand quid each, they are supposed to be very good. However, you need to master ball measurements, so you also need to buy a casino grade roulette wheel so you can practise. You'll also need to be able to place many neighbouring bets very quickly, so you'll also need to be a master with both table and wheel number locations. Sorry can't help with BJ computers but I would imagine that anybody offering to sell "casino beating computers/devices" is 99 times out of 100 either a con artist or selling a worthless product (as you pictured).
moo321
Well-Known Member
The US and UK are both common law jurisdictions. So, yes, what happens in vegas is relevant to the UK.HarryKuntz said:
And, most jurisdictions model their statutes off of Nevada law. The standard you cited: "Altering the odds of the game" is directly from the Nevada statute.
Now, the law in the UK might be different, but you really should talk to an attorney before you take a computer into a casino ANYWHERE.
UK-21
Well-Known Member
Although the legal systems in the UK and Nevada may both be based on a common law principle in the absence of specific statute, there is absolutely no obligation on a UK judge to rule in line with any precident set in Nevada, or anywhere else outside of the UK for that matter. If a barrister argued in court that a certain ruling should be made because a ruling on a similar case had been made in Nevada, I'm pretty sure the judge would fall off of his seat in a fit of laughter - and the said barrister's competence in law would fall seriously into question.moo321 said:
Contrary to what Messrs Bush and Blair may have agreed in a back room somewhere, the UK is still a sovereign state (for the moment!).