How are counters caught?

[Burnitdown]

Maybe we need a casino insider for this...are counters caught in the act or after the fact?
In other words, is someone watching the table for large bets and when they happen, back checking the count?
Or, does a player have a big win (repeated big wins) and then they go to the tape?
I’m not sure that it matters, but I am curious.

 

[kcchiefsfan1982]

Maybe we need a casino insider for this...are counters caught in the act or after the fact?
In other words, is someone watching the table for large bets and when they happen, back checking the count?
Or, does a player have a big win (repeated big wins) and then they go to the tape?
I’m not sure that it matters, but I am curious.

It is obvious when someone is counting.

Counters are not suppose to be playing in a negative count. They would either "color up", sit out and watch, or "go to the bathroom".

They tend to raise their bets, sometimes, around end of shoe.

As soon as a new shoe starts, they go back to minimum bet...even if they were just betting $200 a hand before.

The jumping in and out is obvious, abnormal. I know because I am forced to do this, but the pit bosses are not stupid as to what I am doing.

I am a red chipper, so I can do this right now.

 

[Burnitdown]

Hmm...I guess my point is that gamblers “color up” and “go to the bathroom” too.
I’ve played with a gentlemen who said out loud “last hand? I’ll go a little bigger”. This gentlemen was not counting. I can confirm this by my own count.
Counter behaviors are not unique to counters. I think it’s the repeated pattern and the winning that gives it away.
Perhaps I’ve answered my own question that it’s an after the fact discovery by the casino. It would almost have to be.

 

[BoSox]

It is obvious when someone is counting.

There are just too many possible variables involved to let that above quote stand as is. Such as someone using an opposition betting style.

Counters are not suppose to be playing in a negative count. They would either "color up", sit out and watch, or "go to the bathroom".

Fifty percent of the time the count is as likely to go negative as well as go positive unless you only back count you cannot avoid all the negative counts completely.

As soon as a new shoe starts, they go back to minimum bet...even if they were just betting $200 a hand before.

A smart counter will take a break or may leave the casino entirely at this point. Although he/she may stick around for the next shoe but will not be making the house minimum bet but revert to their own minimum or a little above that amount. That is one way how you can somewhat disguise a spread and your bet jumps when it turns good you do not have to be so drastic in the raising of bets and if the count goes the other way you can still lower to smaller amounts below your own minimum bet.

The jumping in and out is obvious, abnormal. I know because I am forced to do this, but the pit bosses are not stupid as to what I am doing.

I am a red chipper, so I can do this right now.

When you are doing all this moving around I hope you are not using a player's card as the last thing you need at that point is more interaction with the pit.

 

[kcchiefsfan1982]

There are just too many possible variables involved to let that above quote stand as is. Such as someone using an opposition betting style.



Fifty percent of the time the count is as likely to go negative as well as go positive unless you only back count you cannot avoid all the negative counts completely.



A smart counter will take a break or may leave the casino entirely at this point. Although he/she may stick around for the next shoe but will not be making the house minimum bet but revert to their own minimum or a little above that amount. That is one way how you can somewhat disguise a spread and your bet jumps when it turns good you do not have to be so drastic in the raising of bets and if the count goes the other way you can still lower to smaller amounts below your own minimum bet.



When you are doing all this moving around I hope you are not using a player's card as the last thing you need at that point is more interaction with the pit.

At my regular place, I use player's card. I'm there so often, they all know me anyways, I am very noticeable....on week days.

On weekends, they open extra pits, so there are 4 different pits of black jack alone...and i can do whatever. Friday night and Saturday night. But, tonight, it will be so empty, everything is seen.

 

[johndoe]

They run a skills check, which is when they enter your betting levels and the count into software, and look for a correlation between betting size and EV. If they're strongly correlated, you're pegged as a counter. It's not rocket science.

But they tend to be fairly careful about drawing a conclusion too soon, which makes short sessions, and/or leaving after your big bet comes out, etc. worthwhile.

 

[Burnitdown]

They run a skills check, which is when they enter your betting levels and the count into software, and look for a correlation between betting size and EV. If they're strongly correlated, you're pegged as a counter. It's not rocket science.

But they tend to be fairly careful about drawing a conclusion too soon, which makes short sessions, and/or leaving after your big bet comes out, etc. worthwhile.

Interesting. What would trigger them to run a skills check in the first place? Seeing a familiar face? Random checks?

 

[johndoe]

Interesting. What would trigger them to run a skills check in the first place? Seeing a familiar face? Random checks?

From my experience, someone notices something, especially a large bet spread, and requests it. Or there are high cumulative wins, or you're betting a lot more than everyone else for extended periods.

It takes more than being familiar, and they don't do it randomly. Competent counters are rare.

 

[MJGolf]

Guys, remember too, you new counters who have not experienced any real heat yet.................they will ordinarily change conditions on you or change the rules, so to speak before they back you off. It's a warning. Perhaps a noticeable change in penetration for the worse after a visit by pit boss. Or they will limit your bet spread. Sometimes flat bet you. Usually they will do something that is not as lethal as a back off at first. These are indications that they want you to go away but don't want a confrontation.

 

[beating vegas]

Usually the floor person or pit boss will notice your spread. They then call surveillance and they then evaluate your play. Usually surveillance is watching the dealers.

 

[KewlJ]

The big tell is not the bet spread itself (unless you go crazy), but the retreating back to a small bet at the shuffle after betting bigger before the shuffle.

Raising bets is something all sorts of players do including players chasing losses, pressing wins and progressive bettors, all of which the casinos love.

 

[Counting_Is_Fun]

The big tell is not the bet spread itself (unless you go crazy), but the retreating back to a small bet at the shuffle after betting bigger before the shuffle.

Raising bets is something all sorts of players do including players chasing losses, pressing wins and progressive bettors, all of which the casinos love.

Agree. How often do you "not retreat back to your minimum" at the shuffle? Do you just try to make it look random at the shuffle?

 

[Hell'nBack]

OMG! Progressive betting is a mainstay of my act but only in multi-deck games!

 

[BoSox]

Agree. How often do you "not retreat back to your minimum" at the shuffle? Do you just try to make it look random at the shuffle?

I can't answer for KJ but am willing to bet that if he is betting big at the end of a shoe that will complete his session in that casino for the day. He often has spoken about the number of available casinos to him.

 

[KewlJ]

I can't answer for KJ but am willing to bet that if he is betting big at the end of a shoe that will complete his session in that casino for the day. He often has spoken about the number of available casinos to him.

That is correct for the most part. When playing shoe games, I play only 1 bet cycle, meaning max bet is an exit trigger and I will exit at the end of the shoe.

When playing double deck, the cycle is different because I spread both ways, so for pit/surveillance to really see full spread they have to see the count goes both directions. This usually allows me to get 2 different max bet portions of the cycle out before hitting the exit trigger at which I will leave at the next shuffle.