Indian casinos
- Thread starter rams
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Sandy Eggo
Well-Known Member
Umm, where are you specifically talking about? Or at least regionally in CA?
I'm down in San Diego, and I track Aces only...and tend to do pretty well as long as the drunken college players aren't visiting my regular spot.
I'm down in San Diego, and I track Aces only...and tend to do pretty well as long as the drunken college players aren't visiting my regular spot.
when i think of indian casinos, pechanga, morongo, etc come to mind.
most of the blackjack tables here are played with CSM's. but on my last trip to pechanga (2 weeks ago) they had a 6d shoe's at $5 and $25 tables!!!
CSM's make counting useless
but if you're playing a shoe, then counting can be beneficial
i know of some casinos were dealer is switching while you play, and you even have to pay 30 cents per each hand. But i believe these aren't indian casinos, they are privately owned (casinos like Hawaiian Gardens)
most of the blackjack tables here are played with CSM's. but on my last trip to pechanga (2 weeks ago) they had a 6d shoe's at $5 and $25 tables!!!
CSM's make counting useless
but if you're playing a shoe, then counting can be beneficial
i know of some casinos were dealer is switching while you play, and you even have to pay 30 cents per each hand. But i believe these aren't indian casinos, they are privately owned (casinos like Hawaiian Gardens)
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callipygian
Well-Known Member
There are two types of casinos that operate in California.rams said:
(1) non-Indian "casinos". These are technically "card houses" where players play against one another and the house takes a rake. They host mostly poker with some variants of table games where players rotate banking. The house rake is generally high enough on blackjack that the game is unbeatable with card counting.
(2) Indian casinos. These casinos are built on "tribal land" and as such are not subject to normal laws. Betting against the house is allowed, and there are many Indian casinos which offer blackjack. However, many of the casinos employ CSM's, for which counting is ineffective. So if you can find Indian casinos with shoe games, you can count there.
The shoe games, from what I have seen, are not very good. If you really want to play AP blackjack, save for a trip to Reno or Las Vegas, and play better games there.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
Rules are about the same at Indian Casinos
The non tribal card houses have crazy rules and antes and I have never played there.
The Indian casinos have a spread of rules from a few fairly good games to many poor games. There are a few OK games in both San Diego and Riverside Counties. A current copy of CBJN will cover the rules, general pen and sometimes the heat level.
ihate17
rams said:
The non tribal card houses have crazy rules and antes and I have never played there.
The Indian casinos have a spread of rules from a few fairly good games to many poor games. There are a few OK games in both San Diego and Riverside Counties. A current copy of CBJN will cover the rules, general pen and sometimes the heat level.
ihate17
Mimosine
Well-Known Member
This is a gross miscontruction of the situation in CA indian casinos. There are 1 or 2 houses which use almost exclusively CSMs. The rest, and I mean the REST have very FEW CSMs in operation - many have NONE.callipygian said:
The region I refer to is from Santa Barbara to Tijuana. Excess of 20 casinos - all of which I have played at.
callipygian
Well-Known Member
I'll defer to anyone who has been to more or more recently than I have (it's been many years), but 2 out of 3 casinos I went to had CSM's and my extended family (who go far more often than I do) say that the places they go, mostly Northern CA between SF and Tahoe, all have CSM's. It may be possible that they're talking about ASM's, but I specifically clarified with them when they told me.Mimosine said:
Perhaps this is a difference between Northern California and Southern California?
Sandy Eggo
Well-Known Member
Haven't been in a NoCal tribal casino, so I can't answer for anything above Morongo.
Morongo has a $5, 6D handshuffled on a Monday game. I played it for about 40 minutes back in October2008.
Pechanga has a mix of CSM and ASM games.
Pala, not sure as I've not played any tables there.
Harrah's Rincon, mix.
Santa Ysabel, ASM for 6D $3 and $5. ASM for $10 2D game irregularly open.
Paradise's CA -side room is CSM. Their AZ-side is ASM, and I will now only play on that side after my good luck yesterday of $40 becoming $100 in under an hour of speed play (and 3 dealers making about $35 in tips off me).
Morongo has a $5, 6D handshuffled on a Monday game. I played it for about 40 minutes back in October2008.
Pechanga has a mix of CSM and ASM games.
Pala, not sure as I've not played any tables there.
Harrah's Rincon, mix.
Santa Ysabel, ASM for 6D $3 and $5. ASM for $10 2D game irregularly open.
Paradise's CA -side room is CSM. Their AZ-side is ASM, and I will now only play on that side after my good luck yesterday of $40 becoming $100 in under an hour of speed play (and 3 dealers making about $35 in tips off me).
i know the 3 casinos on the N calif coast last time i was home (late summer 08) was all 6D shoe, DOA, 3:2 blackjack payout, decent Pen, could find 80%+ at some tables depending on the dealer. Dealer hits S17, one place all hand shuffles, another all ASM shuffles and the other is ASM except when its busy its 50% ASM 50% hand, used to work in one of them myself and know a lot about the area since my old coworkers scattered to the 3
creeping panther
Banned
Knock it off
Please.
That is Native American Casinos. Show us some respect, we are not from India
CP
rams said:
Please.
That is Native American Casinos. Show us some respect, we are not from India
CP
Sandy Eggo
Well-Known Member
My apologies, panther, but even my friend who's an elder for a non-gaming tribe refers to them as indian casinos...and we both prefer the ones that don't try to be Las Vegas-style in feel. We'd rather have a place that is more inviting, welcoming, with an "energy" that says Tribal vs. Corporate (a la Harrahs Rincon).creeping panther said:Please.
That is Native American Casinos. Show us some respect, we are not from India
CP
bruisedlee
Active Member
Soboba update 2/09
Soboba now has very good DD (h17, D10/11 - $10to$200). Not great rules but penetration from 65% to 80%. I have played $10-$75 with no heat.
Their 6 D game has better rules and the cut card at 1 3/4 deck to 3/4 deck.
They do have a $5 6D game. It's supposed to be 24 hr but sometimes the $5 is not available.
Penetration on all games varies by dealer.
At the double deck you can sometimes effect the cut placement by where you cut the cards.
$10 action will bet you a $10 lunch comp for about 8 hours of play - all computerized but friendly players can run a negative comp balance.
Glad to join the forum, Bruisedlee
Soboba now has very good DD (h17, D10/11 - $10to$200). Not great rules but penetration from 65% to 80%. I have played $10-$75 with no heat.
Their 6 D game has better rules and the cut card at 1 3/4 deck to 3/4 deck.
They do have a $5 6D game. It's supposed to be 24 hr but sometimes the $5 is not available.
Penetration on all games varies by dealer.
At the double deck you can sometimes effect the cut placement by where you cut the cards.
$10 action will bet you a $10 lunch comp for about 8 hours of play - all computerized but friendly players can run a negative comp balance.
Glad to join the forum, Bruisedlee
ihate17
Well-Known Member
You need 80% pen to make it half way decent
The DD game at Soboba, since they went to H-17, has the (tied) worst rules in all California casinos, with D10,11, and NDAS. For me, to make this game marginal or slightly better, you get 80% pen or forget it. The 6D game, is a better game, especially if you get a dealer who cuts a deck or slightly more.
The $10 lunch comp is also questionable since I found their food choices all uneatable.
I used to go to Soboba when the rule for the DD and 6D was S-17, but after calling nearly two years ago, being told that there were no changes to their blackjack, traveling 3 hours to get there, making motel reservations and to find out that there was a major change to their blackjack (h-17), I have had no thought of returning.
Better games closer to Palm Springs.
ihate17
bruisedlee said:
The DD game at Soboba, since they went to H-17, has the (tied) worst rules in all California casinos, with D10,11, and NDAS. For me, to make this game marginal or slightly better, you get 80% pen or forget it. The 6D game, is a better game, especially if you get a dealer who cuts a deck or slightly more.
The $10 lunch comp is also questionable since I found their food choices all uneatable.
I used to go to Soboba when the rule for the DD and 6D was S-17, but after calling nearly two years ago, being told that there were no changes to their blackjack, traveling 3 hours to get there, making motel reservations and to find out that there was a major change to their blackjack (h-17), I have had no thought of returning.
Better games closer to Palm Springs.
ihate17
jimbiggs
Well-Known Member
Make sure you get in on their 2 for 1 bj promotions. Their Kings for Cash promo adds $10/hour per spot played. Last time I was there the pen was not as good as you mentioned. Maybe the economy got them to loosen up a bit, those selfish bastards. I have specific info I can email you, if you're interested.bruisedlee said:
bruisedlee
Active Member
More Soboba
I'm sorry, I'm a sucker for junk food - especially the "polish dog" - food is personal.
On a serious note: Yes the DD rules are bad BUT the penetration is great; sooo.....
My instincts tell me that penetration is more important than rules. THE BIG QUESTION:
Assuming for this discussion two DD games with different rules and penetration AND a 1-6 bet spread.
My guess is that a bad rule resulting in a .2% loss of basic advantage is offset by an increase of 5% penetration.
DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT TO ANYONE ELSE AND CAN WE PROVE IT??
Thanx, Bruisedlee
I'm sorry, I'm a sucker for junk food - especially the "polish dog" - food is personal.
On a serious note: Yes the DD rules are bad BUT the penetration is great; sooo.....
My instincts tell me that penetration is more important than rules. THE BIG QUESTION:
Assuming for this discussion two DD games with different rules and penetration AND a 1-6 bet spread.
My guess is that a bad rule resulting in a .2% loss of basic advantage is offset by an increase of 5% penetration.
DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT TO ANYONE ELSE AND CAN WE PROVE IT??
Thanx, Bruisedlee
bruisedlee
Active Member
Augustine 2/09 update
Good shoe for low rollers:
6D, das, H17 - penetration to about 1 1/2 decks.
2 tables $3 to $50 and $5 to $200(?)
1 table of Spanish 21 - $5 to $200(?) 6D
1 DD table - $15 to $500(?), H17,das BUT only 1 deck penetration
Note: the "(?)'s" are for the high limits, didn't pay that much attention.
BIG QUESTION ON SPANISH 21:
I bought a book that indicated it couldn't be beat by traditional card counting. But my SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) says it should, primarily because:
Although the ten density is almost always low the Ace density is almost always high (in the 6 deck shoe there are only really 5 1/2 decks [no tens means 24 cards are missing]) AND players BJ always wins.
Any others with opinions and/or facts???
Bruisedlee
Good shoe for low rollers:
6D, das, H17 - penetration to about 1 1/2 decks.
2 tables $3 to $50 and $5 to $200(?)
1 table of Spanish 21 - $5 to $200(?) 6D
1 DD table - $15 to $500(?), H17,das BUT only 1 deck penetration
Note: the "(?)'s" are for the high limits, didn't pay that much attention.
BIG QUESTION ON SPANISH 21:
I bought a book that indicated it couldn't be beat by traditional card counting. But my SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) says it should, primarily because:
Although the ten density is almost always low the Ace density is almost always high (in the 6 deck shoe there are only really 5 1/2 decks [no tens means 24 cards are missing]) AND players BJ always wins.
Any others with opinions and/or facts???
Bruisedlee
suicyco maniac
Well-Known Member
Even Money BJ? I'm sure you meant 2 to 1.jimbiggs said:
BTW I remember years ago the first and only time I've been to Soboba and seeing the 2:1 signs. I went to the local Dairy Queen to kill an hour til the promo started and call a friend in Santa Barbara I hadn't seen in years to tell him I was canceling. An hour later I returned betting 3x500. After my first BJ I was informed that it was $50 max. I probably should have stuck around and played it anyway but I decided catching up with an old friend was worth more.... I guess I have put a price on friendship and that price is somewhere between $50 2:1 and $500 2:1 :laugh:
ihate17
Well-Known Member
I agree with the concept, disagree with your numbers
Most important thing first, I dislike things like Polish dogs.
The 75-80% pen can sure make up for better rules and 60% pen, but it is more than just .2% (that is the change they made) because there are DD games where you not only have S-17 but double any and DAS.
The other thing with the numbers is 5% more pen or 5 cards, is not that much, like my above example, I think you need 15%, so if you are getting 75% you are fine. By the way, are you subtracting their multi-card burn from the pen, if they still burn several cards?
ihate17
Most important thing first, I dislike things like Polish dogs.
The 75-80% pen can sure make up for better rules and 60% pen, but it is more than just .2% (that is the change they made) because there are DD games where you not only have S-17 but double any and DAS.
The other thing with the numbers is 5% more pen or 5 cards, is not that much, like my above example, I think you need 15%, so if you are getting 75% you are fine. By the way, are you subtracting their multi-card burn from the pen, if they still burn several cards?
ihate17
bruisedlee said:
bruisedlee
Active Member
Thanks for the "feedback".
They only burn the top card now and 75% penetration is almost always available.
So, is 6 to 1 spread a profit??
Bruisedlee
They only burn the top card now and 75% penetration is almost always available.
So, is 6 to 1 spread a profit??
Bruisedlee