Just when I thought Vegas was legit

[ZenKinG]

I really tried to convince myself this city offered a fair game, I did, I really did, but this city is completely rigged and I finally have the data to prove it.

Backcounting at Planet Hollywood and 7 STRAIGHT FUCKING SHOES go over TC +2. I only played in 3 of them until the red flags went off. Keep in mind I lost all 3 in a row, which almost never happens.

But lets not digress... This isnt about losing 3 shoes in a row. We all know that can happen, but what it does give me is additional information something was wrong when you consider the following.

Keep in mind im still a net loser at this rigged property since I got here last year of which 90% of the time ive backcounted there.

Also keep in mind 6 of the 7 shoes shot up over TC +2 in the first deck and a half LOL. Stacked shoe? Rigged ASM?

Also keep in mind these were 8 deck shoes with the frequency of a +2 and higher being much lower than pitch and 6 deck games.

Also keep in mind, this is the same property where on multiple occasions Ive had running counts in the 30s, which of course Ive lost all of them. MULTIPLE times. No other place has this happened at even once.

Also keep in mind this happened on the day of one of the Stanley Cup final games. What a time to rig the shoes when the casino is packed.

7 STRAIGHT SHOES OVER +2 on an 8 deck game and 6 of them occuring right within the first deck and a half LOL. Just when i thought Ive seen it all.

Planet Hollywood, you've been caught red handed. Keep stacking the decks with the Gaming Commission in your pocket. You guys are fucking pathetic that money means so much to you. Pathetic industry and an even more pathetic society.

The fact that Im still up over 5 figures in this mob infested town really shows how great i am. Even with casinos cheating me, I still cant be beat, go figure.

 

[KewlJ]

ZenKinG, What is wrong with you? Seriously...there IS something wrong with you. This paranoia is not normal or healthy.

1.) a TC of +2 is nothing. Northing out of the normal. And 7 shoes not much of a sample size. This is NOT proof of anything.

2.) your final line....that you are up 5 figures, over an extended period of time is actually proof of the legitimacy of these games.

3.) if you were actually being cheated and REALLY felt you were being cheated, why would you continue to play at that game? I myself have a casino here in Vegas (on Boulder highway), that I have convinced is cheating or was cheating using a ASM. But my suspicion came about after accumulating a reasonable amount of data, like 10's (notice the plural) of thousands of rounds played with unusually negative results, not 7 shoes which is a completely insignificant sample size for ANYTHING. And once I made that determination, whether in my head or real, that I was uncomfortable with these results....I STOPPED PLAYING THERE! The beauty of Vegas, the strength of Vegas is that there are so many games and opportunities within such close proximity. So why would anyone continue to play a game they are uncomfortable with? Your "out to prove this or that" attitude is going to be your downfall.

4.) In reading several sites, there is a re-occurring theme. When you lose, it is because you are being cheated. When you win, it is because you are the greatest card counter ever. Neither is true. Get a grip on reality, Zenking.

5.) My recommendation: Stop all the silliness and play. Focus on the "good" games and/or games you are comfortable with and forget games you are uncomfortable with for whatever reason and learn to deal with the natural variance, because THAT is what you are experiencing....complete NORMAL variance.

 

[JohnCrover]

ZenKinG, What is wrong with you? Seriously...there IS something wrong with you. This paranoia is not normal or healthy.

1.) a TC of +2 is nothing. Northing out of the normal. And 7 shoes not much of a sample size. This is NOT proof of anything.

2.) your final line....that you are up 5 figures, over an extended period of time is actually proof of the legitimacy of these games.

3.) if you were actually being cheated and REALLY felt you were being cheated, why would you continue to play at that game? I myself have a casino here in Vegas (on Boulder highway), that I have convinced is cheating or was cheating using a ASM. But my suspicion came about after accumulating a reasonable amount of data, like 10's (notice the plural) of thousands of rounds played with unusually negative results, not 7 shoes which is a completely insignificant sample size for ANYTHING. And once I made that determination, whether in my head or real, that I was uncomfortable with these results....I STOPPED PLAYING THERE! The beauty of Vegas, the strength of Vegas is that there are so many games and opportunities within such close proximity. So why would anyone continue to play a game they are uncomfortable with? Your "out to prove this or that" attitude is going to be your downfall.

4.) In reading several sites, there is a re-occurring theme. When you lose, it is because you are being cheated. When you win, it is because you are the greatest card counter ever. Neither is true. Get a grip on reality, Zenking.

5.) My recommendation: Stop all the silliness and play. Focus on the "good" games and/or games you are comfortable with and forget games you are uncomfortable with for whatever reason and learn to deal with the natural variance, because THAT is what you are experiencing....complete NORMAL variance.

Why don't you report them to the gaming commission?????

 

[ZenKinG]

ZenKinG, What is wrong with you? Seriously...there IS something wrong with you. This paranoia is not normal or healthy.

1.) a TC of +2 is nothing. Northing out of the normal. And 7 shoes not much of a sample size. This is NOT proof of anything.

2.) your final line....that you are up 5 figures, over an extended period of time is actually proof of the legitimacy of these games.

3.) if you were actually being cheated and REALLY felt you were being cheated, why would you continue to play at that game? I myself have a casino here in Vegas (on Boulder highway), that I have convinced is cheating or was cheating using a ASM. But my suspicion came about after accumulating a reasonable amount of data, like 10's (notice the plural) of thousands of rounds played with unusually negative results, not 7 shoes which is a completely insignificant sample size for ANYTHING. And once I made that determination, whether in my head or real, that I was uncomfortable with these results....I STOPPED PLAYING THERE! The beauty of Vegas, the strength of Vegas is that there are so many games and opportunities within such close proximity. So why would anyone continue to play a game they are uncomfortable with? Your "out to prove this or that" attitude is going to be your downfall.

4.) In reading several sites, there is a re-occurring theme. When you lose, it is because you are being cheated. When you win, it is because you are the greatest card counter ever. Neither is true. Get a grip on reality, Zenking.

5.) My recommendation: Stop all the silliness and play. Focus on the "good" games and/or games you are comfortable with and forget games you are uncomfortable with for whatever reason and learn to deal with the natural variance, because THAT is what you are experiencing....complete NORMAL variance.

You go backcount and let me know whem you get 7 straight shoes over +2 with 6 of them occurring within the first deck and a half to 2 decks. I coulsnt believe qhat I was seeing, really coukdnt. In 1200 hours of playing this game Ive never seen that.

I also dont understand the whole idea if you think one casino is cheating then stop playing there. If one casino is cheating, that means there are likely many more and any casino can cheat at will which makes me not want to play ever again. You even alluded to one on Bouldwr Highway, that makes it 2 now with many more possibly doing it or knowing they can do it whenever they want. Whats even the point of playing then knowing you can be cheated anywhere at anytime.

This society is trash, people are so obsessed with money to need to cheat people and with a fake higher authority gaming commission who is nothing but an acting job with the illusion of enforcement safety for the public. Ive contacted them many times and you quickly find out whose side theyre really on, which makes it even more likely casinos can get away with anything whenever they please.

I laugh at the fact when people claim why would a casino risk their license if caught cheating. LOL. Yeah go tell me one scenario thats ever happened where a casino especially a major casino lost their license after being caught cheating. Slap on the wrist at the worst. Too much tax revenue would be lost for the city

 

[psyduck]

Isn't it a good thing to have positive counts early in the shoe?

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

You go backcount and let me know whem you get 7 straight shoes over +2 with 6 of them occurring within the first deck and a half to 2 decks. I coulsnt believe qhat I was seeing, really coukdnt. In 1200 hours of playing this game Ive never seen that.

I also dont understand the whole idea if you think one casino is cheating then stop playing there. If one casino is cheating, that means there are likely many more and any casino can cheat at will which makes me not want to play ever again. You even alluded to one on Bouldwr Highway, that makes it 2 now with many more possibly doing it or knowing they can do it whenever they want. Whats even the point of playing then knowing you can be cheated anywhere at anytime.

This society is trash, people are so obsessed with money to need to cheat people and with a fake higher authority gaming commission who is nothing but an acting job with the illusion of enforcement safety for the public. Ive contacted them many times and you quickly find out whose side theyre really on, which makes it even more likely casinos can get away with anything whenever they please.

I laugh at the fact when people claim why would a casino risk their license if caught cheating. LOL. Yeah go tell me one scenario thats ever happened where a casino especially a major casino lost their license after being caught cheating. Slap on the wrist at the worst. Too much tax revenue would be lost for the city

I`m not saying I think that they`re removing high cards or doing some form of ASM sequencing (would sequencing even be possible when the players are choosing the cut card location and the exact amount of players at the table will never be known??), but I agree with KJ that you should just stop playing there. Especially since your opinion is that gaming wouldn`t do anything about it if they were caught. If you think that, then what would be the point in trying to prove they are cheating? Not playing there will at least get your mind off of the possibility if nothing else. The 7 straight shoes of that type of count early on is atypical sure, but not nearly enough to be any sort of statistical anomaly. I think you`re just coupling together the losses with the unlikelihood of the count being like that so many times in a row, and the strangeness of the situation is making you too paranoid about it. It`s hard not to focus on the negative sometimes. I know I always remember the big hands I lose way more vividly than the big ones I win. The biggest indicator if they were doing card removal of course would be the running count when the cut card comes out. If you had said there were 7 straight shoes of the running count being crazy high when the cut card came out, then that would make it a lot more suspicious.

 

[Talmadge]

If you happen to be there at the time when they are bringing new decks out to the tables, you could take a look if they spread the cards out on the layout first.

 

[ZenKinG]

If you happen to be there at the time when they are bringing new decks out to the tables, you could take a look if they spread the cards out on the layout first.

They do spread the cards, but the problem is, the cards come 'preshuffled' and most of the places dont even fan the preshuffled cards face up either, they just check the back of the cards for marks etc. 90% of the city uses pre-shuffled cards as well. When it's pre-shuffled it's impossible to know what's in the pack.

My guess is it's not a short shoe, but 10s and aces are being replaced with 4s and 5s. Pit bosses check how many cards are in there by counting them down in the pit when a new pack is brought in and replaced so it cant be a short shoe because that would expose the fraud. Replacing the 10s and Aces with 4s and 5s is much slicker. The only risk is more than eight 4s or 5s coming out and someone tracking that denomination. I think the ASMs are also programmed to never let that happen regardless of where you cut the shoe.

There is absolutely no need to be using preshuffled cards other than to completely destroy any transparency between customer/patron and casino. Casinos claim it saves them time, which id a bogus excuse because they still end up throwing those same pre shuffled cards back into the ASM to shuffle them AGAIN. Anyone with a brain should have red flagd firing off after some simple questioning of these practices.

The gaming commission is corrupt and the city needs tax revenue so they cant be trusted and guess what? The commission already told me as well that they dont check the cards LOL. The only ones who check are some chinese guys halfway across the world in some rogue chinese factory. Other than that, we have to rely on some rigged programmed ASM machine to tell us all the cards are there.

7 STRAIGHT shoes of +2 TC in 8 deck shoe games. Just let that sink in. What's worse is the fact 6 of them shot up straight away within the first 2 decks.

 

[JJP]

You go backcount and let me know whem you get 7 straight shoes over +2 with 6 of them occurring within the first deck and a half to 2 decks. I coulsnt believe qhat I was seeing, really coukdnt. In 1200 hours of playing this game Ive never seen that.

I also dont understand the whole idea if you think one casino is cheating then stop playing there. If one casino is cheating, that means there are likely many more and any casino can cheat at will which makes me not want to play ever again. You even alluded to one on Bouldwr Highway, that makes it 2 now with many more possibly doing it or knowing they can do it whenever they want. Whats even the point of playing then knowing you can be cheated anywhere at anytime.

This society is trash, people are so obsessed with money to need to cheat people and with a fake higher authority gaming commission who is nothing but an acting job with the illusion of enforcement safety for the public. Ive contacted them many times and you quickly find out whose side theyre really on, which makes it even more likely casinos can get away with anything whenever they please.

I laugh at the fact when people claim why would a casino risk their license if caught cheating. LOL. Yeah go tell me one scenario thats ever happened where a casino especially a major casino lost their license after being caught cheating. Slap on the wrist at the worst. Too much tax revenue would be lost for the city

This may sound crazy to some, but I believe a SMALL amount of paranoia IS a good thing. I have been around gambling many years. While I'm not "scared" to place a bet or wager, I also have seen several instances of confirmed cheating in my life to know it would be naive to completely discount it. If you listen to the GWAE podcasts, earlier this year, Munchkin interviewed Mike Maloney, a professional horse bettor. He had proof of a number of instances of past posting (betting after the race started). Another example would be the 2002 Breeders Cup Pic 6, where a group of programmers from Drexel hacked into the tote and hit the Pic 6 for several million (they did get caught and went to jail, BTW). Over the years, we have seen a few point shaving scandals in college sports. And we've seen the NBA wasn't free of cheating, as referee Tim Donaghy was implication of altering the outcome of games earlier this century.

I wonder how many out there have never felt cheating was going on. Be honest, at some point, you have seen numerous high counts just never come down, as the endless array of 4s,5s, and 6s are drawn. And it could very well be 100% legit, just bad variance. We want to believe every game is on the up and up, but what about at the Indian casino? If they were to cheat a player, what recourse would the player have? Let's not forget, blackjack is still a gambling game. We don't need to be paranoid, but let's not be completely naive, either.

 

[Talmadge]

They do spread the cards, but the problem is, the cards come 'preshuffled'

Ok got ya, i was assuming that once the decks were opened that the cards would be in order, making it easy to check if they were all there once they were fanned out.
Since they are preshuffled, i agree it would be impossible to have enough time to check all of the cards, before they begin the wash.

 

[KewlJ]

7 STRAIGHT shoes of +2 TC in 8 deck shoe games. Just let that sink in. What's worse is the fact 6 of them shot up straight away within the first 2 decks.

You keep repeating this like it is something significant. IT IS NOT! It is a small sample size that has absolutely no meaning. This is about as meaningful as seeing 7 red in a row at roulette. It just isn't the earth-shattering event that you think it is and it proves absolutely nothing!

 

[KewlJ]

This may sound crazy to some, but I believe a SMALL amount of paranoia IS a good thing.

I agree that a small amount of paranoia is a good thing. We are dealing with an industry that has proven time and time again, that they are not to be trusted.

And this is precisely why I am not a fan of pre-shuffled cards. This a short cut, a road that the industry should not have gone down. These various procedures, such as spreading the cards, were put in place for a reason....to preserve the integrity of the game. Eliminating this particular procedure guarantees that someday, somewhere someone will cheat (if they haven't already). It is human nature to be greedy and again this particular industry has demonstrated that time and time again.

To remove this safe-guard in the name of saving 120 seconds once a day is about the worst decision they could make. It undermines the integrity of the entire industry.

 

[JJP]

KewlJ,

How much conversation with the pit boss is too much? Will this make one more likely to have a light shined on them? I play mostly in California, and one of the rules they have is they will leave a partially played shoe in the discard tray and won't shuffle until they get the cut card. So if nobody is playing, there's still a partial shoe to be dealt. If one has been back counting, and its a good shoe, great. But if not, several times I have asked the dealer to shuffle up. They then go to the pit boss. Sometimes they agree, but sometimes they don't, citing casino rules. I usually tell them I have a superstition about not playing partial shoes, so if they won't reshuffle, I won't play. Is there anything wrong with doing that?

 

[ZenKinG]

KewlJ,

How much conversation with the pit boss is too much? Will this make one more likely to have a light shined on them? I play mostly in California, and one of the rules they have is they will leave a partially played shoe in the discard tray and won't shuffle until they get the cut card. So if nobody is playing, there's still a partial shoe to be dealt. If one has been back counting, and its a good shoe, great. But if not, several times I have asked the dealer to shuffle up. They then go to the pit boss. Sometimes they agree, but sometimes they don't, citing casino rules. I usually tell them I have a superstition about not playing partial shoes, so if they won't reshuffle, I won't play. Is there anything wrong with doing that?

Most casinos will grant what they call a 'courtesy shuffle'. It is to be done one time per customer if requested They will usually pause when you ask if they can re-shuffle and then think to themselves if you have asked already once before for a re-shuffle. If not, they will grant you a one time 'courtesy shuffle'. Just make sure when you ask them, be polite with a smile and a 'Come on, please' with a sarcastic joke to it and they wont have a problem granting you the re-shuffle.

 

[ZenKinG]

You keep repeating this like it is something significant. IT IS NOT! It is a small sample size that has absolutely no meaning. This is about as meaningful as seeing 7 red in a row at roulette. It just isn't the earth-shattering event that you think it is and it proves absolutely nothing!

Wrong. Comparing it to seeing 7 red or whatever color came up 7 times or however many times is irrelevant because that actually happens A LOT. I believe the same color hits 9 times in a row at least once every 100 spins.

I know all about 'Sampling sizes' and the basis of signifcance and what not. In my last 1200 hours of play along with hundreds of hours on Casino Verite, I have NEVER seen 7 straight 8 deck shoes go over a TC +2 one after another with 6 of them happening within the first 2 decks.

I honestly couldnt believe what I was seeing. This is very SIGNIFICANT because it RARELY ever happens. It took me 1200 hours for this to happen and im not even counting all the time on Casino Verite that Ive spent practicing.

There needs to be a major investigation done on Planet Hollywood. They've been in the news before about arresting a counter before so you know they arent the brightest people in the world and that they dont like blackjack APs. I wouldnt be surprised if they got so frustrated about it that they would try and skirt the rules to make sure no one can beat them. Just look at the penetration they offer on their games. The people running the show there are pretty much braindead like the majority of this industry.

Casinos in Vegas =

"OH MY GOD HE HAS A 1.5% EDGE!!!! LOCK THE BUILDING DOWN, CUT OFF 2 DECKS, ORDER PRE-SHUFFLED CARDS, REMOVE ALL 10S AND ACES, GET SECURITY HERE FAST, REVIEW THE TAPE, LOCK UP THE FOOTAGE AND CALL THE POLICE HERE NOW AND 86 THIS THIEF !!! HIS 2X200 BETS ARE GOING TO TAKE US DOWN!!"

The amount of stupidity in this city is beyond ridiculous. You can blame game protection agencies advising these casinos that counters will bankrupt them so they can sell them their business.

I could triple any casino's blackjack profits instantly if i ran the show. I have so many ideas, but I'll never help this idiotic and immoral industry. Ill let them keep digging themselves a hole.

 

[JohnCrover]

Have they seriously stopped fanning the cards when they bring new cards in to play?

 

[ZenKinG]

Have they seriously stopped fanning the cards when they bring new cards in to play?

Welcome to China town. I have been harboring on this issue since I got here last year. Im glad KJ agrees with me about the lack of transparency. Transparency is all but gone and that goes for PA as well. The cards came pre shuffled there as well. Some casinos might fan the pre shuffled cards face up, but some dont even turn them over at all. They just check the backs of the cards for marks and throw it into the rigged ASM to shuffle it again.

Whats the point of ordering it pre shuffled if youre just going to throw them into the shuffler to shuffle it again? Is this a safety measure in case they come pre sequenced from the factory? If so, why not just have them order the cards in order and then throwing them into the shuffler so everyone is happy and transparency between customer and casino can be restored? What time are they exactly saving by ordering pre shuffled cards? Questions that make you go hmmm.

If I ever leave this city or retire from the game, Im going to spam thousands of flyers all over the strip telling everyone to stay away from 6-5 and demand transparency with cards that come in order from the factory and to never play with pre shuffled cards.

 

[KewlJ]

KewlJ,

How much conversation with the pit boss is too much? Will this make one more likely to have a light shined on them? I play mostly in California, and one of the rules they have is they will leave a partially played shoe in the discard tray and won't shuffle until they get the cut card. So if nobody is playing, there's still a partial shoe to be dealt. If one has been back counting, and its a good shoe, great. But if not, several times I have asked the dealer to shuffle up. They then go to the pit boss. Sometimes they agree, but sometimes they don't, citing casino rules. I usually tell them I have a superstition about not playing partial shoes, so if they won't reshuffle, I won't play. Is there anything wrong with doing that?

I would say a pit person should find nothing too suspicious about asking for a shuffle of an idle shoe. If they find that suspicious, I would say they were already suspicious of you from other issues. Just from a superstition point, many people wouldn't want to play am idle shoe from the middle.

Asking for a shuffle of an idle shoe is different from the "courtesy shuffle" that ZenKinG is talking about. The courtesy shuffle during play is completely dependent on whether the pit feels like granting it, regardless of what nonsense they claim about rules, regulations and procedures. But an idle shoe, nobody is playing. They can grant it to you and have a player playing, or deny it and have the dealer stand there wasting time and money.

 

[KewlJ]

If I ever leave this city or retire from the game, Im going to spam thousands of flyers all over the strip telling everyone to stay away from 6-5 and demand transparency with cards that come in order from the factory and to never play with pre shuffled cards.

"Welcome to Chinatown" is a funny comment based on your posts throughout the community over the last year. Shows your level of paranoia, but it is funny.

But what I quoted above really shows that you are taking these things too personally. Reminds me of Kenny Uston suing New Jersey about barring players. He "won" (supposedly). What did he get....what did we all get? Damn near made the games unplayable. That is known as "cutting off your nose to spite your face".
I used to feel the way you do about the casino industry. Take preferential shuffling. Preferential shuffling should be illegal. No question about it. If you talk to Bob Nersesian, he will tell you it should be illegal. I used to feel like...somebody should sue. Maybe I should sue. Ya know what the result would be if you got a judge independent enough to rule against the casinos? They would offer inferior games to protect themselves. You take away one protection and they will switch to another.

The bottom line is "that it is what it is". It's a game within a game. The casino makes the rules to the game within the game....this cat and mouse game. You can play or you can not play. Your choice.

I choose to play. I choose to play by their rules. They make the rules, I find a way to play....and win! And when they make the rules so that I can't win, well then it will be time for me to find something else to do. But you can't take everything so personally. That will just eat you up.

 

[mcallister3200]

If you think they were pulling high cards then why the hell are they cutting off damn near two decks with a 500 max mid-shoe?