More H17 table's @ B in AC

M

MikwZello

Active Member
Yes now the pit outside of the Bbar is H17....they were installing the new tops this morning.

So now just the pits outside the main HL room are S17 (although the tables right outside of the HL are still 6D...and the tables closer to the "living room" and hotel elevators are all 8D)

And there are a couple of tables over by the noodle bar that are still 8D S17, but Im sure they will be the next to go.

Of course both HL rooms are still 6D S17
 
Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
Haven't been to Borg in a while, but the R. did sweat my x20 bet, with a split and double. I probably deserved it :rolleyes:
 
Tarzan

Tarzan

Banned
Just how far can they take this?

What do you think--- in another year or so they will have 12 decks, autoshufflers, H17, blackjack pays 6to5, no DAS and it will be a ghost town because all table game players will all be in PA? Want to let them know you don't like it? TELL THEM! Tell EVERYONE! Advise people to boycott and not play the 8 deck H17 game and when dealers are standing there long enough twiddling their thumbs they will get the hint! Do this with the 6:5 games also and do it on a grand scale to mean the whole town!

Sounds good in theory but it'll never work. Do you know why? I call it the "F*ckbucket factor". You see, gamblers are oblivious to increased HA it seems and simply don't care... as long as they are GAMBLING! Let's say I owned a casino that had absolutely no regulation whatsoever (think back to that movie "Vegas vacation" for a moment here and the games offered in that OTHER casino called "guess which hand" and that other gem of a game called "what number am I thinking of in my head") and I offer a game called "F*ckbucket", in which the bettors toss a dollar into a large bucket and then toss a colored ball through a series of hoops or something. You note on a big sign that winners get paid 100 to 1... a chance at winning $100 on a $1 bet! You place it next to the roulette and the big six wheel over near the caribbean stud game and you're all set. They ask, "So what are the rules and how can you win?" and you reply, "I'm not sure because no one has ever won... but that means big winners must be due at any time now! Place your bets!!!!" In the summer season when the touristas all roll in, it's a given that you will have people lined up to play "f*ckbucket" all day long! Sad but true... hardcore degenerate gamblers don't care about HA as long as they are gambling!hahaha


You might have a difficult time dissuading gamblers from playing a crummy blackjack game with increased HA and doing any organized boycott.
 
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2

21forme

Well-Known Member
I predict...
1. Within a year or two (if not already), H17 will become the standard, and it will be rare to find an S17 game outside a HL room.
2. 6:5 on non-SD games will follow.

Only after their customer base stops playing BJ, will the casinos start to swing back to reasonable rules.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
Suckonomics

If all the players who understand the difference between good rules and bad have already gone to PA, AC can screw with the rules with impunity. Nothing left to lose.

Some people said the PA rules will force AC to compete and I take the contrarian view, that PA will cream off the few knowledgeable players and leave the complete suckers (and us!) for AC, and neither suckers nor AP's are categories they are worried about offending with bad rules.

They could probably offer a 6:5 8D game with close to a 2% HE and the table would still be full, if they sold it hard enough. But they wouldn't make any more money! The modern ploppy comes to a casino with a small budget he fully intends to lose, he loses it all and leaves. What difference does it make if he loses it at a good BJ game, a bad BJ game, or a carnival game?

Here's the difference: there are a bunch of casinos in town, the suckers swim between them and each casino wants to be the one where he loses his $200, not the casino next door. So if you are offering a good game and your neighbor is offering a bad game, and the sucker doesn't know the difference, the money is going to end up in the other store. This is why I believe one-casino towns have slightly better games than competitive markets; they're not competing for the customer's patronage, they're competing to be the one to clean out the customer first. If you're the only casino, he's going to lose it all at your place anyway so there's no disadvantage to luring people in with good rules. That it defies normal economic theory is why gaming is more accurately termed a vice, than an industry.
 
S

Shoofly

Well-Known Member
Tarzan said:
They ask, "So what are the rules and how can you win?" and you reply, "I'm not sure because no one has ever won... but that means big winners must be due at any time now! Place your bets!!!!" ]
Click to expand...


That is very close to the philosophy of lotteries.
 
S

StudiodeKadent

Well-Known Member
Automatic Monkey said:
Here's the difference: there are a bunch of casinos in town, the suckers swim between them and each casino wants to be the one where he loses his $200, not the casino next door. So if you are offering a good game and your neighbor is offering a bad game, and the sucker doesn't know the difference, the money is going to end up in the other store. This is why I believe one-casino towns have slightly better games than competitive markets; they're not competing for the customer's patronage, they're competing to be the one to clean out the customer first. If you're the only casino, he's going to lose it all at your place anyway so there's no disadvantage to luring people in with good rules. That it defies normal economic theory is why gaming is more accurately termed a vice, than an industry.
Click to expand...
You are aware there are PLENTY of counterexamples to this, right?

Australia is full of one casino towns and has some of the worst house edges on main floors.

Macau has six different concessionaires and has house edges going from 0.1% to 0.2%.

Las Vegas may have a lot of sucker BJ games, but it also has very good BJ games if you know where to play.

I doubt that a long term empirical study would support the claim that a one-casino town will have better BJ than a multi-casino town.

You did, however, offer some reasoning for your position, and I respect that. Your reasoning makes a point. However, the empirics do not back your point up.
 
pieinthesky

pieinthesky

Well-Known Member
H17

With due respect to the contrary views expressed, I believe there is value in educating the gambling public to the high cost of H17 games. I have seen awareness of the even greater ripoff 6:5 games grow dramatically since they were introduced, with a consequent reduction in the number of those games (yes, I know, plenty of people still play them, and will play anything else, but that doesn't mean ploppy education is futile). The ploppy knows THAT - even if he doesn't know WHY - his bankroll is disappearing faster. Connecting that with education about the cost of the rule change may have some effect. I have seen those who play a sucker game admit they are playing a sucker game. Awareness is the first step, leading, one hopes, to complaints and boycotts.
 
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Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
Ploppies aren't completely stupid, even they're often aware that 8 decks is worse than 6, 6:5 is a bad payout, H17 is worse than S17. I would estimate half of the ploppies are semi-knowledgeable, while the other half are completely clueless.
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
Gamblor,

What you have posted above is true, but only to a degree.

Ploppies that assert that they know good rules from bad, for the most part, are dealing
in an abstraction, that does not deter them from playing poor games.

They are "gambling" and simple arithmetic is most often beyond their ken.

Their challenging of "the fates" is truly a reified metaphor, a la Don Quixote.
 
Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
Agreed Flash. But it eventually sooner or alter sinks in to a good number of ploppies (not all), to know when they're playing a obviously bad game. I think 6:5 payout qualifies. I think 8 deck and H17 are so subtle that it doesn't sink in as much, and as you say they only know in the abstract its bad.

Thus you'll see in an off hours, low limit blackjack tables relatively full, while 6:5 is empty (or other horrible games like Carribean Stud). You'll never see the reverse. Wish we did :) Even they can figure out a blatantly bad rule game.

Now $1 BJ is a bit of anomaly, but there are signs it might be burning out ploppies (its no longer at Resorts, as others pointed out). Just the knuckleheads at Trump properties keep it packed for now.
 
Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
Also another interesting observation is if in casinos that offer both H17 and S17 at the same minimum, if the S17 tables tend to be more crowded.

I did note this at R., so much so that I chose to play the H17 because it was relatively empty, while S17 was full. Admittedly a very small sampling on my part, and probably has a lot to do with the table location (S17 were better situated, more closer to Boardwalk entrance, while H17 was hidden somewhere in the middle of the pit). Anyone else notice this, or at other properties?
 
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