Rebuilding BR

[blackjackomaha]

I would like to solicit ideas on how to grow my now-limited BR so I can go back to safely playing higher-limit tables.

I made the decision a few months ago to use my winnings and part of my BR to fund grad school. I also recently made the decision to raid the remaining funds as a down payment on a plot of land. I could not pass up the price, location, and low interest rates.

So, here I am, stuck playing $5/$10 as opposed to $25 which I have grown accustom to. I am not here to complain - I knew the consequences of raiding my BR for other opportunities. Yes, I am able to rebuild my BR on my own, slowly again by adding the extra $ each month from the normal job. Yes, I'll also be able to contribute winnings from my low-limit play. However, I want to explore the opportunities that (might) exist to grow my BR faster.

Some of my close relatives are aware of what I do, and have expressed interest in providing extra funds, with the winnings being split 50/50 up until the point I can return their funds in full.

Have any of you found investors (relatives or strangers) to compliment your BR (or use investor funds AS your BR)? If so, is it worth it, or is the trouble and potential mistrust too great?

Would I be better off being patient and growing my BR on my own again?

I appreciate your thoughts, either in replies or PM.

-BJO

 

[BJLFS]

I am also trying to build my BR. Someone gave me a chart on spreading my bets. Go to two hands when the count is appropriate since you will reach N0 faster and also have a higher EV. That's my small piece of advice. And remember, Wong in/out.

BTW that 50% of the winnings you are giving sounds like a lot.

 

[Shoofly]

I would like to solicit ideas on how to grow my now-limited BR so I can go back to safely playing higher-limit tables.

I made the decision a few months ago to use my winnings and part of my BR to fund grad school. I also recently made the decision to raid the remaining funds as a down payment on a plot of land. I could not pass up the price, location, and low interest rates.

So, here I am, stuck playing $5/$10 as opposed to $25 which I have grown accustom to. I am not here to complain - I knew the consequences of raiding my BR for other opportunities. Yes, I am able to rebuild my BR on my own, slowly again by adding the extra $ each month from the normal job. Yes, I'll also be able to contribute winnings from my low-limit play. However, I want to explore the opportunities that (might) exist to grow my BR faster.

Some of my close relatives are aware of what I do, and have expressed interest in providing extra funds, with the winnings being split 50/50 up until the point I can return their funds in full.

Have any of you found investors (relatives or strangers) to compliment your BR (or use investor funds AS your BR)? If so, is it worth it, or is the trouble and potential mistrust too great?

Would I be better off being patient and growing my BR on my own again?

I appreciate your thoughts, either in replies or PM.

-BJO

As someone who has no experience on matters like this, I will offer an opinion anyway. You should build your BR slowly by yourself. I would definitely NOT bring close relatives into this. I can think of several landmines awaiting you.

 

[blackjackomaha]

I am also trying to build my BR. Someone gave me a chart on spreading my bets. Go to two hands when the count is appropriate since you will reach N0 faster and also have a higher EV. That's my small piece of advice. And remember, Wong in/out.

BTW that 50% of the winnings you are giving sounds like a lot.

Yeah, I've been wonging more than I have previously done. I am not playing unless TC+1 or higher. I've never had to limit my play like this and let me tell you, I haven't had to test my patience like this in a while! :laugh:

 

[BJLFS]

Yeah, I've been wonging more than I have previously done. I am not playing unless TC+1 or higher. I've never had to limit my play like this and let me tell you, I haven't had to test my patience like this in a while! :laugh:

I know. Waiting for a good count is a killer.

 

[blackriver]

Staking fairly is very very complicated and almost always done arbitrarily and I would say "unfairly." You really should get blackjack attack and find out what your exact hourly and ror is or would be. Make sure you understand clearly and explain it to them. If this stake allows you to double your hourly a reasonable starting point should be 25% for them since you were getting 100% of half before, you would then be dividing the surplus evenly. But really anything between 40% and 10% is potentially "fair". I'm also a believer that free markets and personal attributes should have an impact on whats fair. whichever of you had the least to gain should receive the biggest share of the surplus. If he had lots of things to do with that money (opportunity cost) and is just trying to hook you up and your able to play a much better game because of this deal then go ahead and give him 40%. If You educated them thoroughly and have a right game and they have money to burn and even relish getting to be in on some drama then this its essentially free money and starting with 20% is fair, decreasing over time as you get into the long run. Where you should have more capital and take on more or the variance and they should be more comforted by their free roll position.

 

[blackjack avenger]

be bold

You would like to keep your positive bets the same, to keep N0 low. Since you can add to bank? Wong aggressively so you can keep your bets up.

 

[blackjack avenger]

partners

50% win player
50% win investor, 100% cash investment
100% loss investor
split paid when bank is doubled, get to your target or Kelly bank won. Would like it to be one settle point and part ways happy.

Bets from 1/4 to 1/8 Kelly

You can bet your money with the investors


I believe the current thought is split after expenses.

 

[psyduck]

Yeah, I've been wonging more than I have previously done. I am not playing unless TC+1 or higher. I've never had to limit my play like this and let me tell you, I haven't had to test my patience like this in a while! :laugh:

I hope you have more casinos to play. Wonging in at high counts in one casino makes yourself clearly stand out. Also if the tables are full, you can't get in when the count is high. Not that I care, but some ploppies hate people entering their shoe to change "the flow of cards" (somehow they seem to know how to keep the "good flow" by standing on soft 13). I find Wong in is harder to do than Wong out.

I have had two memorable Wong in experiences. Once I joined a table and the dealer told me she did not like me to play at her table, because when I entered her table everyone started to lose and they all blamed her. The second one was I was ready to get in at high count, but a woman player at the table puked and they had to shut down to clean up, yes with all those high cards in there!

 

[BJLFS]

I hope you have more casinos to play. Wonging in at high counts in one casino makes yourself clearly stand out. Also if the tables are full, you can't get in when the count is high. Not that I care, but some ploppies hate people entering their shoe to change "the flow of cards" (somehow they seem to know how to keep the "good flow" by standing on soft 13). I find Wong in is harder to do than Wong out.

I have had two memorable Wong in experiences. Once I joined a table and the dealer told me she did not like me to play at her table, because when I entered her table everyone started to lose and they all blamed her. The second one was I was ready to get in at high count, but a woman player at the table puked and they had to shut down to clean up, yes with all those high cards in there!

OT but yesterday when I was playing I went to two hands and the dealer made a comment about changing the flow of the cards! :laugh:

 

[kewljason]

I made the decision a few months ago to use my winnings and part of my BR to fund grad school. I also recently made the decision to raid the remaining funds as a down payment on a plot of land. I could not pass up the price, location, and low interest rates.
-BJO

I won't comment on rebuilding BR or investors. I have no experience with either. But couldn't pass up the opportunity to congratulate you on funding grad school with BJ winnings. THAT was a very AP move.

I don't envy you going back to red chip, though. Psychologically it will seem like you are spinning your wheels and getting no where fast. Moving from red chip to green was the biggest single improvement in my game, because of better conditions at those games (better rules, less crowded tables). Going backwards would be painful, but at least you have something worthwhile to show for it. Again, my congrats, BJO

 

[ningtong88]

I hope you have more casinos to play. Wonging in at high counts in one casino makes yourself clearly stand out. Also if the tables are full, you can't get in when the count is high. Not that I care, but some ploppies hate people entering their shoe to change "the flow of cards" (somehow they seem to know how to keep the "good flow" by standing on soft 13). I find Wong in is harder to do than Wong out.

I have had two memorable Wong in experiences. Once I joined a table and the dealer told me she did not like me to play at her table, because when I entered her table everyone started to lose and they all blamed her. The second one was I was ready to get in at high count, but a woman player at the table puked and they had to shut down to clean up, yes with all those high cards in there!

Wong in when counts becomes high is really easy IMO, especially when dealer pulls out 7 cards 21 and beat everyone, everyone wants a new player to come in to change the flow of the cards at that time. There are numerous times when I did this, the players were thanking me for coming in to save them. That's how I do it. As far as backcounting draws more attention, I agree, the risk of getting caught is always there if you count, regardless if you play through both good and bad counts or wong in/out.

 

[WRX]

You speak as if you are interested in making significant money from advantage play, so I'll respond with that goal in mind. (If you were just interested in being a hobbyist, it wouldn't matter a great deal how you approached it, you could just play whatever stakes were affordable.) I'm further assuming that you've developed your skills to the point that you have confidence in your edge, and are willing to risk some serious money on your play, if you can get it.

Approach advantage play in the same frame of mind that you would approach any investment opportunity or the prospect of starting any new business. IMHO, for the present you should focus on making and saving money from a regular job. Return to advantage play when you have enough saved up that the stakes you can then afford will make your investment of time and travel expenses worthwhile. Playing at small stakes is basically a waste of time (except insofar as you get enjoyment out of the play itself, as opposed to out of whatever you can earn from it). It just takes you away from putting time into other money-earning activities, or alternatively, from giving time to family and friends, which is also very important.

Joint banking with family and friends acting as passive investors strikes me as very risky. These people are not going to have the experience and mindsets of professional gamblers, and are not going to fully comprehend the real possibility that you will lose. If you do lose during the intended life of the bank, will you and they be content to see them take a loss? Or are you going to feel a social obligation to pay them back eventually? If so, the whole things ends up being a BAD DEAL for you.

 

[Adobe]

Wonging in the best

I agree with the wonging in posts. You also need a lot of patience. Using this method I can say for myself I rarely lose. I wait for +2 TC in Hi/Lo then back out at zero.

 

[psyduck]

I agree with the wonging in posts. You also need a lot of patience. Using this method I can say for myself I rarely lose. I wait for +2 TC in Hi/Lo then back out at zero.

That is a lot of waiting around because you would only play about 15% of the hands. I am not sure if you re-enter the same shoe. If you don't, I do not believe TC 0 is the optimum Wong out point in terms of hourly win. You can determine that for the game you play with a simulator.

 

[blackjackomaha]

I hope you have more casinos to play. Wonging in at high counts in one casino makes yourself clearly stand out. Also if the tables are full, you can't get in when the count is high. Not that I care, but some ploppies hate people entering their shoe to change "the flow of cards" (somehow they seem to know how to keep the "good flow" by standing on soft 13). I find Wong in is harder to do than Wong out.

I have had two memorable Wong in experiences. Once I joined a table and the dealer told me she did not like me to play at her table, because when I entered her table everyone started to lose and they all blamed her. The second one was I was ready to get in at high count, but a woman player at the table puked and they had to shut down to clean up, yes with all those high cards in there!

Yeah, there are more to play within a decent drive. I've found the most opportune times to be at certain hours when the tables are mostly full (a seat or two left at most tables) and the floor personnel are jumping from table to table trying to stay on top of players using their rewards cards.

The best times to play now are quite different than the best times for the $25+ tables. Took me a little longer to get the names and shift times for the casino personnel sorted out given the increased number of low-limit tables.

 

[blackjackomaha]

I won't comment on rebuilding BR or investors. I have no experience with either. But couldn't pass up the opportunity to congratulate you on funding grad school with BJ winnings. THAT was a very AP move.

I don't envy you going back to red chip, though. Psychologically it will seem like you are spinning your wheels and getting no where fast. Moving from red chip to green was the biggest single improvement in my game, because of better conditions at those games (better rules, less crowded tables). Going backwards would be painful, but at least you have something worthwhile to show for it. Again, my congrats, BJO

Yeah, it definitely seems I've been 'demoted'. The improved games and less crowded tables will be missed dearly. If I solely rely on extra funds from my main job, it'll take a minimum of 13 months to rebuild my BR to a safe enough amount.

 

[blackjack avenger]

13 not so bad

13 months to build bank to $25 level? Kelly bank?
Does this include current funds?
What % of Kelly bank do you have now?

 

[blackjackomaha]

You speak as if you are interested in making significant money from advantage play, so I'll respond with that goal in mind. (If you were just interested in being a hobbyist, it wouldn't matter a great deal how you approached it, you could just play whatever stakes were affordable.) I'm further assuming that you've developed your skills to the point that you have confidence in your edge, and are willing to risk some serious money on your play, if you can get it.

Approach advantage play in the same frame of mind that you would approach any investment opportunity or the prospect of starting any new business. IMHO, for the present you should focus on making and saving money from a regular job. Return to advantage play when you have enough saved up that the stakes you can then afford will make your investment of time and travel expenses worthwhile. Playing at small stakes is basically a waste of time (except insofar as you get enjoyment out of the play itself, as opposed to out of whatever you can earn from it). It just takes you away from putting time into other money-earning activities, or alternatively, from giving time to family and friends, which is also very important.

Joint banking with family and friends acting as passive investors strikes me as very risky. These people are not going to have the experience and mindsets of professional gamblers, and are not going to fully comprehend the real possibility that you will lose. If you do lose during the intended life of the bank, will you and they be content to see them take a loss? Or are you going to feel a social obligation to pay them back eventually? If so, the whole things ends up being a BAD DEAL for you.

When you speak of significant money from AP play, yes - I don't like the idea of playing if my EV isn't at least equal to what I make on an hourly-equivalent rate at my normal job. As far as confidence in my play and willing to make the right plays - yes, I am very confident and have worked out most of the kinks in my play over time. Not 100% perfect; my profits were slightly under my expected EV.

I also agree that it seems like small-stakes play is a waste of my time - especially when I start dwelling on how much better things were with higher-stakes play. That's why I was considering additional funding sources to build my BR faster. If I waited and built it with extra funds from my normal job, it would take a minimum of 13 months...which isn't a HUGE amount of time, but still a long wait. There might be opportunities I come across that I won't be able to take advantage of without taking a much larger risk.

I thought about a "replenishing BR," but I've personally never taken the idea seriously since I wouldn't have direct access to the funds when I would need them the most!

 

[blackjackomaha]

13 months to build bank to $25 level? Kelly bank?
Does this include current funds?
What % of Kelly bank do you have now?

Yes, roughly 13 months to build BR to $25 level, given a slightly elevated RoR compared to what I was trying to use before. It also includes what little current funds I have set aside.

For the $10 betting level, I have a bank capable of safely supporting 1/2 kelly bets.