AP move or just cheating?

  • Jack_Black

    AP move or just cheating?

    Don’t know if this should be here or in the “law” section. Mods, feel free to move it. I read this off of Richard Marcus’ website. Don’t know if this is legal or not:

    Blackjack Cheat Scam #1

    Spill, Cut and Steer

    A cheat receives an Ace on the deal. He then casually spills his drink on it. The casino will immediately remove the wet Ace from the game and replace it with another brand-new Ace from an identical deck. How does this replacement work for the blackjack cheat?

    Well, assuming he spotted when the new decks of cards were loaded into the blackjack card shoe, all he’d have to do is wait after two shoes were dealt to spill his drink on the Ace. Then when the replacement Ace is inserted into the pack of six or eight decks, he would be able to distinguish it by the brighter white edge the new card would have over the rest of the cards when the dealer presents the pack for him to cut. In other words, the new Ace would stick out like a sore thumb. So then he will just cut the cards a specific number of cards in front of the Ace, depending on his position at the blackjack table. Believe it or not, most casinos are still not hip to this relatively rank blackjack scam, and when the cheat gets it down, he makes money by betting heavily knowing the bright white ace is coming his way!

  • FLASH1296

     

    Clearly this “move” qualifies as (unambiguous) cheating.

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    But I guess if you were to wander around the casino scouting for tables where people spill a drink it would not be cheating.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: Richard Munchkin said:
    But I guess if you were to wander around the casino scouting for tables where people spill a drink it would not be cheating.

    You could, but you’d be like the man who rode the MTA in the MTA Song by the Kingston Trio. No shortcuts- has to be an ace.

    He may scout forever through the tables of Vegas,
    He’s the man who never returned.

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    Knowledge of any card is an enormous edge to the player.

  • Sucker

     

    If it’s a 5 or a 6 and you know what do do with it, it’s STRONGER than an ace.

  • Sucker

     

    BTW, it takes WAY more than 2 shoes for this to work. Even after several HOURS, the cards STILL don’t always discolor.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: Richard Munchkin said:
    Knowledge of any card is an enormous edge to the player.

    Yes, but I reference the OP.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: Sucker said:
    BTW, it takes WAY more than 2 shoes for this to work. Even after several HOURS, the cards STILL don’t always discolor.

    And if they did discolor after two shoes, you’d only have two shots at it, and you’d have to get the cut card both times, too.

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    I don’t think it would be considered cheating, because the casino is supplying both the old cards and the new cards, and it was their decision to change one card instead of the whole shoe.

    But you are intentionally damaging their property by spilling the drink, and if they figure out it was intentional they could get you for that.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    I don’t think it would be considered cheating, because the casino is supplying both the old cards and the new cards, and it was their decision to change one card instead of the whole shoe.

    But you are intentionally damaging their property by spilling the drink, and if they figure out it was intentional they could get you for that.

    Morally, it’s cheating. You are deceiving the house into helping you mark the cards. Whether you trick an innocent party, even a house employee, who is doing so unbeknownst to himself, or you do so yourself, marking cards is cheating.

  • Machinist

     

    Hmmmmm,
    That is running really close to what I would call the darkside, I don’t mind running in the gray area, sometimes a very dark gray area. But the dark area is kinda scarey. But then in my mind after all these years seeing the dark side of casinos themselves, ehh if the opportunity presents it self under the right conditions, I say Hammer them!!!!!

    Machinist

  • aslan

     

    Quote: Machinist said:
    Hmmmmm,
    That is running really close to what I would call the darkside, I don’t mind running in the gray area, sometimes a very dark gray area. But the dark area is kinda scarey. But then in my mind after all these years seeing the dark side of casinos themselves, ehh if the opportunity presents it self under the right conditions, I say Hammer them!!!!!

    Machinist

    As in, it’s not so bad to cheat a cheater?

  • shadroch

     

    How often do you think you could spill your drink before you are either banned or refused another drink?

  • Machinist

     

    Quote: aslan said:
    As in, it’s not so bad to cheat a cheater?

    Maybe even more than that Aslan. I mean they don’t really cheat, but they do put up a nice facade, hell even their buildings are fake, fake rocks, fake pillars, fake marble, the list goes on. Also that idiot from CET telling us that they are “concerned” about problem gambling……….yea right!!!!
    I look at casinos as an illusion, all is not as it seems. So yea, if I can create my own illusion and fool them into thinking I’m just another patsy in the joint…………..$$$$
    Shadroch is right though, how many times can ya spill a drink? But on the other hand, if you have half a dozen joints with dirty cards, and are able to hit this scam perfectly with a very large bet, you certainly could make a decent car payment, very decent!!!
    But still there are plenty of other ways of skinning a casino, without making a mess.

    Machinist

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: aslan said:
    Morally, it’s cheating. You are deceiving the house into helping you mark the cards. Whether you trick an innocent party, even a house employee, who is doing so unbeknownst to himself, or you do so yourself, marking cards is cheating.

    “Morally?” I’m sorry, you have used a word I do not recognize in the context of dealings with casinos. At the table I’m as deceitful and sleazy as I can profitably be, limited by what I can get away with. This is not church, this is not civil society; these are people who hate us and want to do us harm by taking our money, and I will respond in kind.

    In a practical sense, I don’t think this is a very worthwhile move, because it involves an awkward physical act, it is time-consuming, and you are only marking one ace out of a shoe. But if I was going to do it, I would wait until I have two aces and can’t resplit.

    Also if you are going to do any moves involving altered cards, this is best done as a team. The guy who physically does the marking or bending bets a minimum and plays normally, leaves when he is done, and is literally out of town before his partner is there playing the marks. Until they can establish a connection between the two people it is bulletproof.

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: shadroch said:
    How often do you think you could spill your drink before you are either banned or refused another drink?

    There’s other less obvious ways to mark up a card. Most casinos will of course take out cards for any even relatively subtle marks.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    “Morally?” I’m sorry, you have used a word I do not recognize in the context of dealings with casinos. At the table I’m as deceitful and sleazy as I can profitably be, limited by what I can get away with. This is not church, this is not civil society; these are people who hate us and want to do us harm by taking our money, and I will respond in kind.

    In a practical sense, I don’t think this is a very worthwhile move, because it involves an awkward physical act, it is time-consuming, and you are only marking one ace out of a shoe. But if I was going to do it, I would wait until I have two aces and can’t resplit.

    Also if you are going to do any moves involving altered cards, this is best done as a team. The guy who physically does the marking or bending bets a minimum and plays normally, leaves when he is done, and is literally out of town before his partner is there playing the marks. Until they can establish a connection between the two people it is bulletproof.

    It’s not bulletproof. The link can be made through tape replays. It’s like robbing a jewelry store with a camera recording you without a mask over your face.

    I’m not a choir boy. I do know the difference between cheating and not cheating, and I have done things in the past I am not proud of today. If it were morally permissible to do whatever I could to take the casino’s money, I would get a job with a casino because some of the biggest and easiest scams have been inside jobs.

  • Jack_Black

     

    Macho: Darkside?! No way is this the darkside. is it in the DMZ between the dark and grey area? I believe after all the responses on here, I’ve made that conclusion. will I be walking along the DMZ, poking at it, taunting it, stepping in, stepping out? well……..

    Shad: I expect once per shift. twice and I’m sure I’d be kicked out for being belligerent. assuming that most places change shoe cards once per shift, then that’s all I need. This is a steering play, not a sequencing or ST play.

    Aslan: is this a joke too or not?

    AM: I’m with you. Morals?!?! the entire casino business model is based upon duping the sucker with a so called “fair” game. hell, why is 3 card monty illegal, yet casino games aren’t? they both dupe you. better yet, why does cheating in a poker room get you 86ed, but cheating in a casino gets you a felony?

    I’ve made the conclusion that this move is absolutely, and most definitely is……..in the gray area. something that could land you in detention temporarily, but with a decent lawyer could get you off and even sue for wrongful imprisonment. It was the casino’s choice not to change out the whole shoe. The info of the new Ace in the shoe is available to everyone at the table.(seems to be a legal standard for determining cheating everywhere)

    I put this into the Tommy Hyland AC warp play category. he found a fault in casino procedure. they should’ve changed cards earlier to prevent him from winning an exorbitant sum. anyway, do it at your own risk. YMMV.

  • QFIT

     

    Quote: aslan said:
    You could, but you’d be like the man who rode the MTA in the MTA Song by the Kingston Trio. No shortcuts- has to be an ace.

    He may scout forever through the tables of Vegas,
    He’s the man who never returned.

    Fun song, but you’re dating yourself.

    This is clear cheating as you are purposely causing a card to be marked. The new card, not the old card.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: Jack_Black said:
    Macho: Darkside?! No way is this the darkside. is it in the DMZ between the dark and grey area? I believe after all the responses on here, I’ve made that conclusion. will I be walking along the DMZ, poking at it, taunting it, stepping in, stepping out? well……..

    Shad: I expect once per shift. twice and I’m sure I’d be kicked out for being belligerent. assuming that most places change shoe cards once per shift, then that’s all I need. This is a steering play, not a sequencing or ST play.

    Aslan: is this a joke too or not?

    AM: I’m with you. Morals?!?! the entire casino business model is based upon duping the sucker with a so called “fair” game. hell, why is 3 card monty illegal, yet casino games aren’t? they both dupe you. better yet, why does cheating in a poker room get you 86ed, but cheating in a casino gets you a felony?

    I’ve made the conclusion that this move is absolutely, and most definitely is……..in the gray area. something that could land you in detention temporarily, but with a decent lawyer could get you off and even sue for wrongful imprisonment. It was the casino’s choice not to change out the whole shoe. The info of the new Ace in the shoe is available to everyone at the table.(seems to be a legal standard for determining cheating everywhere)

    I put this into the Tommy Hyland AC warp play category. he found a fault in casino procedure. they should’ve changed cards earlier to prevent him from winning an exorbitant sum. anyway, do it at your own risk. YMMV.

    Actually, not. There was a time I enjoyed cheating cheaters, hustling hustlers. But no longer. I don’t need the money, but more that that, I don’t want to become what I detest in them. They have it coming, but I’ll leave that to the Lord, or to karma, or to however you might see the triumph of justice. Better that every ploppy should come to his senses and just quit playing at casinos. But, of course, that will never happen. The ploppy himself must share the guilt. Like one dealer put it one night in AC, “This is what you people want. We’re just giving you what you want!” While not entirely true, there is some truth in it. No one forces these idiots to blow there cash. Over-inflated egos; anger at fate, God, or their miserable lives; illusions of grandeur; whatever, it takes two to tango. The saddest cases are those who actually believe they have a decent chance to win. But I don’t fancy myself an avenging angel, Robin Hood, or thwarter of evil plots. I’m just a recreational player who detests the casinos and likes the challenge of beating them on the up and up at their own game. Don’t get me wrong, I do understand where you and others are coming from. But this is where life has brought me, and I’m happy doing what I’m doing.

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    Words matter. The word “cheat” has a legal definition. That is why people that say, “hole carding is cheating” are just flat out wrong. What they mean is they find hole carding unethical or immoral.

    I am not a lawyer, but I believe that a player who intentionally spills a drink to then take advantage of the change in cards might be arrested for cheating. The same player who just sat down at a table where a drunk spilled a drink, and took advantage in the very same way would not be guilty of cheating.

    If you reach into a shoe, remove the cut card and reinsert it with a 1/2 deck cut, you are cheating. If you scout around the casino and find a dealer who gives a 1/2 deck cut you are not.

  • QFIT

     

    Quote: Richard Munchkin said:
    Words matter. The word “cheat” has a legal definition. That is why people that say, “hole carding is cheating” are just flat out wrong. What they mean is they find hole carding unethical or immoral.

    I am not a lawyer, but I believe that a player who intentionally spills a drink to then take advantage of the change in cards might be arrested for cheating. The same player who just sat down at a table where a drunk spilled a drink, and took advantage in the very same way would not be guilty of cheating.

    If you reach into a shoe, remove the cut card and reinsert it with a 1/2 deck cut, you are cheating. If you scout around the casino and find a dealer who gives a 1/2 deck cut you are not.

    Yep, cheating has a legal def. In Nevada:

    Quote:
    NRS 465.085 Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction.
    1. It is unlawful to manufacture, sell or distribute any cards, chips, dice, game or device which is intended to be used to violate any provision of this chapter.
    2. It is unlawful to mark, alter or otherwise modify any associated equipment or gaming device, as defined in chapter 463 of NRS, in a manner that:
    (a) Affects the result of a wager by determining win or loss; or
    (b) Alters the normal criteria of random selection, which affects the operation of a game or which determines the outcome of a game.
    3. It is unlawful for any person to instruct another in cheating or in the use of any device for that purpose, with the knowledge or intent that the information or use so conveyed may be employed to violate any provision of this chapter.
    (Added to NRS by 1967, 1283; A 1975, 697; 1977, 386; 1979, 1478; 1981, 1294; 1989, 972)

    Now, that does not say that it is cheating if you have nothing to do with the circumstance.

  • Jack_Black

     

    Quote: Richard Munchkin said:

    I am not a lawyer, but I believe that a player who intentionally spills a drink

    I know what the law says. but It would be pretty tough to prove that it was intentional spilling. well, it wouldn’t be tough to prove if you are a known AP, but I am not.

  • QFIT

     

    Quote: Jack_Black said:
    I know what the law says. but It would be pretty tough to prove that it was intentional spilling. well, it wouldn’t be tough to prove if you are a known AP, but I am not.

    I suppose you could also murder someone and say your gun misfired while you were cleaning it. What’s your point?

The BlackjackInfo Knowledge Base contains over 200,000 messages posted by the BlackjackInfo community.

Posting and replies to the knowledge base are no longer available, but comments and replies are welcomed on the blog.