Some helpful tips for anyone planning on playing

  • tulip

    Some helpful tips for anyone planning on playing

    Hello, all. I’m an active AP and I want to share some tips and general guidelines for anyone who plans on playing in any of these casinos.

    Lately, many casinos have become more aware of advanced AP tactics, and have adjusted some of their games and rules accordingly. There are still plenty of opportunities, and I know I speak for many when I say that we would all like to keep it that way.

    I’ve spent a lot of time at the tables in many different places, and I feel as if my experience may help out those who are new to the game. This is a newer account, and as such I may not be able to receive private messages (Admin: this account is now PM-ready), but I’m in good standing with many posters on this forum, and I will be attempting to get in touch with them in the coming days so that I can get some feedback and advice so that we can make this as comprehensive as possible.

    If you want to get in touch with me personally, please let me know in this thread and I’ll get in touch with you via PM.

    Please, if you have any questions or concerns or additions or any feedback of any kind, LET ME KNOW!

    Now, like I said, the big casinos are aware of more advanced legal AP tactics. If you don’t want to get your face on a flyer, you’ll listen to what I have to say.

    • Be wary of heat that your fellow APs may have drawn

    I can’t stress this enough. When you’re in a casino with other APs, you need to be VERY cognizant of the possibility of heat. The cat is out of the bag with the more advanced stuff, and we aren’t the only ones who know it. YOU WILL GET HEAT. You WILL be followed by surveillance, and you WILL transfer heat to your friends and associates if you aren’t careful. Remember the 2nd law of thermodynamics!

    If you get backed off, you should NOT associate with your fellow APs before leaving the casino. Believe me, I’ve been guilty of this before, and it came back to bite me in the ass. I love war stories as much as the next guy, but if you’re backed off or you get ANY heat at ALL, do NOT go and talk about it with your fellow APs. That is an absolute cardinal sin amongst professionals. I know that none of you are foolish enough to do this, so please forgive me if I’m stating the obvious. Nobody’s perfect, I’ve made this mistake in the past. Don’t do it. If you get heat (or worse, backed off), LEAVE. You don’t want your face on a flyer, trust me. The good ol’ days of inept Griffin goons are over. This is 2011. It’s not the laughable baseball cap glamor shot it used to be.

    • Do not socialize in the casino!

    Seriously. Don’t do it. It will destroy the games, your playing ability, and your reputation. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’ll say it again:

    DO NOT SOCIALIZE IN THE CASINO.

    Don’t do it. There’s plenty of places in town that have better drinks and a nicer atmosphere. I’ll bring you there. I’ll buy you a drink. We can swap stories about sweaty bosses and sloppy dealers after we’re done smashing the tables. Do NOT socialize in the casino.

    If you’re in the casino, you’re there to win. Save the small talk for the bar. Seriously, you’ll get burned, and you’ll take everyone down with you. Most venues have some sharp bosses in their employ, and they have nothing better to do than find out who you’re there with. Be careful!

    • Don’t be obvious!

    It makes me cringe every time I see someone dip their head way low, or employ some other obvious tactic in order to make the play. If it’s a tough game, MOVE ALONG! Believe me, there’s greener pastures. Don’t try to force it. If it’s questionable, it isn’t worth it. It’s a five minute drive to the next place. Trust me when I say the grass really is greener at the other table.

    If you’re sitting wayyyyy back in your chair, or your chin is on the rail, or any other such tomfoolery, find a different location. Trust me, you don’t have to do that sort of thing.

    NEVER hit hard 17 or higher. And I don’t want to hear the lame excuse “But ploppies” do it!”. Bosses, dealers, and surveillance can “smell” the difference between a “ploppy” and when they’re being had. It WILL come back to bite you! It’s not enough to merely be able to pass as a casual gambler, doing things that some casual gamblers do. You must BE a casual gambler, not just “maybe” a casual gambler. Don’t be an outlier.

    Southpaw made a very good post, and rather than try to sum it up, I will quote it in its entirety.

    Quote: Southpaw said:
    Seriously people, if you’re going to play these games, please play them exactly as described by Tulip. The worst thing is that the people who are going to ruin these games are probably going to be doing so playing for nickels. They will prevent the action of those who would have been able to hit the game for black action multiple times.

    One thing tulip forgets to mention has to do with the relief shift.

    Do not leave the table immediately as soon as relief arrives. If your BP (assuming you’re bright enough to actually be using one!) is playing 2×100, his loss in EV per round played is only $1 (You should be able to figure out which game I’m talking about here based on the loss in EV). I’m not saying to not go take a bathroom break eventually during relief, but come on–don’t be terribly obvious. You can also drop your BP’s bets down during relief shift, too, but maybe only drop it as low as 1/4 of your BP’s normal wager.

    Also, I cringe every time I see a BP and his spotter leave the table simultaneously right as relief arrives. They pretend to not know each other at the table, but they will leave the table simultaneously as soon as relief hits and magically reappear as soon as the primary returns.

    Again, at least these sorts are bright enough to use a BP.

    And, finally a reiteration of one of Tulip’s points regarding socialization in the casino. Please stop this! I cringe when I see a BP and a spotter who pretend to not know one another at the table only to find them socializing in the casino later, albeit sometimes on a different day.

    On the way to the casino, if you and your BP ride together, drop one person off on the street. When leaving, pick your partner up off the street. Do not ride together if you pretend to not know each other in the casino!

    Spaw

    • Don’t gang-bang one dealer.

    I apologize for the salacious sounding title, but it does have to be said. If someone comes across a good game, don’t load up every single spot on the table with an AP. They aren’t stupid anymore. The good ol’ days are over, sadly. If you want to have a compatriot at the table with you, work out the method of communication beforehand. Do NOT try to come up with any sort of ad-hoc signals or anything like that. Trust me, I’ve walked down that road before, and it leads to lots of toasted money and torched games. I mean, come on now… it’s not exactly the most inconspicuous thing in the world, is it?

    • Do not text out in the open!

    Texting is fantastic. I’m a complete texting addict. I even pay the phone company a bunch of extra money every month so I can text to my heart’s content.

    Do not text out in the open. If you must text someone (which is fine), do so in the bathroom. If you can’t, at least cover the screen with your palm or something like that.

    This may sound insanely paranoid, but think of it this way: what kind of person applies for a casino surveillance job? Yeah, that’s right. Between peering down women’s shirts, what else do these guys have to look at? It wouldn’t surprise me if they had their own drinking game based on what they see people text. They read texts for fun because they’re bored and because they can. Keep that in mind before you whip out the iphone. These cameras are very powerful.

    All of this can be summed up in one statement:

    • Be professional.

    Whether you’re a seasoned vet or a sharp hobbyist, professionalism is key. I know I’m not saying anything that you don’t already know, but it does bear repeating.

    If anyone has anything to add, please post in this thread and let me know.

    I look forward to meeting all of you at the tables, and I hope you clear out some racks. Good luck, all!

  • KenSmith

     

    I think this is an excellent post, so I didn’t want to blast it as some requested. Instead, I sanitized it and moved it.

    To the OP: I enabled your PMs. If you do not want to receive PMs at that username please use the User Control Panel to disable them.

  • Sucker

     

    Quote: tulip said:

    If anyone has anything to add, please post in this thread and let me know.

    NEVER hit hard 17 or higher. And I don’t want to hear the lame excuse “But ploppies” do it!”. Bosses, dealers, and surveillance can “smell” the difference between a “ploppy” and when they’re being had.It WILL come back to bite you!

  • tulip

     

    Quote: Sucker said:
    NEVER hit hard 17 or higher. And I don’t want to hear the lame excuse “But ploppies” do it!”. Bosses, dealers, and surveillance can “smell” the difference between a “ploppy” and when they’re being had.It WILL come back to bite you!

    Absolutely.

  • 21gunsalute

     

    I’ll ask it again since my post got removed: What does the city in question have to offer other than bad games, bad rules and a good chance of getting mugged once one steps outside of the casino, or even inside the casino?

  • Machinist

     

    Quote: 21gunsalute said:
    I’ll ask it again since my post got removed: What does the city in question have to offer other than bad games, bad rules and a good chance of getting mugged once one steps outside of the casino, or even inside the casino?

    Ho’s

    Machinist

  • Sucker

     

    Quote: 21gunsalute said:
    What does the city in question have to offer other than bad games, bad rules and a good chance of getting mugged once one steps outside of the casino, or even inside the casino?

    Bad games & bad rules for card counters. Opportunities abound for advanced playing techniques. As far as the danger of being mugged; pay attention to your surroundings at all times & you’ll be just fine. Everyone I’ve ever heard of who got mugged did SOMETHING wrong which could have prevented it had they been a bit less careless.

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: Sucker said:
    Bad games & bad rules for card counters. Opportunities abound for advanced playing techniques. As far as the danger of being mugged; pay attention to your surroundings at all times & you’ll be just fine. Everyone I’ve ever heard of who got mugged did SOMETHING wrong which could have prevented it had they been a bit less careless.

    If it’s the place I’m thinking of, there are opportunities for counters too. It’s a good place to learn, practice and use every kind of technique.

    Aside from taking taxis front door to front door (possible, but too expensive for most) there is no way to completely protect yourself there, but awareness, good choices for parking, using the indoor passageways when possible and avoiding the bad habits (chatty, horny, drunk, high, slow) that make one a target will reduce the risk to negligible. AP’s are among the few casino patrons that will both have 5 figures of cash on their person and be walking around outside the casino. It seems natural to us so it is easy to forget what big “whales” we are to a street criminal.

  • Lonesome Gambler

     

    Interesting post. There are a lot of points made that should be taken into consideration by anyone interested in branching out into more advanced strategies. Here’s something I would add:

    When attempting to play games requiring advanced strategies, you must consider the consequences of the casino making the play. For card counters, the fallout from a backoff may simply consist of the inability to play on a particular shift for the next few weeks. As a result, many players moving over to advanced plays from basic card counting may not fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

    Many advanced strategies are not necessarily advanced in a technical capacity; they’re fairly simple to understand and implement on a fundamental level. However, there are many nuances of advanced plays that will not become apparent to new players until much later in their careers, which can cause problems when a new player attempts to put their newfound knowledge to good use while ignoring (or at least not understanding) the big picture.

    With many advanced strategies, if a play is made, a backoff isn’t all you have to worry about. Here are some very likely scenarios:

    – A brand new OSN/databse entry
    – A formal 86’ing (casinos don’t have a sense of humor about some advanced plays)
    – Transferring heat to associates
    – Games or even entire venues being fixed
    – People losing their jobs

    For casual or even serious recreational players, a backoff may be little more than a fun story to share with other APs later down the road, but the implications of strong games being burned out by well-meaning but inexperienced players run a lot deeper for those who count on game preservation for their livelihood.

    Making advanced plays isn’t just about memorizing charts and finding good game conditions — it’s also about understanding how the system works and knowing how to play the games and still live another day without having your name and face on all the latest flyers and mug book entries. While new players would do well to consider advanced plays in order to expand their repertoire and subsequently become better APs, they should make sure they fully understand the consequences of their actions before they jump into anything.

  • creeping panther

    Lonesome

    Very interesting post there Lonesome.

    So is what you are saying, don’t do as I do, because I have special skillz, and if you attempt it you will face terrible tragedy including losing your job, etc, etc.

    Sooooooo,,, just leave the high edge games alone so me and my friends have them all to ourselves.

    Ya, that sounds just about right

    CP

  • Lonesome Gambler

     

    Quote: creeping panther said:
    Very interesting post there Lonesome.

    So is what you are saying, don’t do as I do, because I have special skillz, and if you attempt it you will face terrible tragedy including losing your job, etc, etc.

    Sooooooo,,, just leave the high edge games alone so me and my friends have them all to ourselves.

    Ya, that sounds just about right

    CP

    Don’t be childish. I’m saying that the implications of burning a game are not restricted to getting backed off, flyered, etc. You will lose the game, and everyone else will too, including people that may rely on gambling income as part or all of their livelihood. And the jobs comment was in reference to dealers being fired.

    I don’t have “special” skills, and I’m not staking claim to high-edge games, nor am I implying that new players should stay away. I’m simply suggesting that there’s quite a bit of danger in playing these games that may not be immediately apparent to those less experienced at making such plays. We’ve all been beginners at some point, and I’m in no way a skilled pro, just an enthusiastic learner. No one’s out to get you. Relax.

  • creeping panther

    Mj

    Quote: mjbballar23 said:
    Although I agree with basically everything in the OP, the fact of the matter is that when players come into town for a couple days or weeks, they are there to make money and are going to do what they have to in order to get the money. Longevity probably isn’t the number one priority.

    Also, how many APs are going to be thinking about “the guys doing this for a living” when deciding to make a play or not? not many.

    MJ, yes I have to agree with you, but for us with jobs, who work for a living 9-5 and play serious or rec. on the side, should always be attentive to the desires of those that have chosen to not have a 9-5 job, and play casino games full time, we should step aside for them, consider their needs not ours, defer to them, they are special…………………………NOT

    (Ya real special, like strong arming a none Pro AP in LV into giving up money he had won because the Pro was doing this for a living and the other AP was not, gotta love those Pro’s)

    CP

  • Lonesome Gambler

     

    Quote: creeping panther said:
    MJ, yes I have to agree with you, but for us with jobs, who work for a living 9-5 and play serious or rec. on the side, should always be attentive to the desires of those that have chosen to not have a 9-5 job, and play casino games full time, we should step aside for them, consider theire needs not ours, defer to them, they are special…………………………NOT

    (Ya real special, like strong arming a none Pro AP in LV into giving up money he had won because the Pro was doing this for a living and the other AP was not, gotta love those Pro’s)

    CP

    Are you intentionally ignoring my post in direct response to your incorrect interpretation of mine?

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: Lonesome Gambler said:
    …I’m saying that the implications of burning a game are not restricted to getting backed off, flyered, etc. You will lose the game, and everyone else will too, including people that may rely on gambling income as part or all of their livelihood. And the jobs comment was in reference to dealers being fired.

    You are being too cryptic to be properly understood. Are you talking about a holecard game? Playing with your head right down on the table? (Like I do.) It’s true that will sometimes cause a particular game (or rather, one particular dealer on that shift) to get shut down but if that is the only way for me to exploit it, so what? If you can play it in some other way, and you want me to stop doing that, you have to pay me.

    I realize that getting caught using that “advanced technique” can have consequences that a counter rarely has to face, but let’s call it what it is. It’s holecarding, probably the most inglorious form of AP. Other advanced techniques that are better applicable to AC blackjack are less likely to be identified by the house (but more likely to arise suspicions of cheating, because they legitimately don’t know what you are doing.)

    Do you care about the dealer being fired? I care about the dealer losing his income about as much as he cares about players losing theirs.

  • 21gunsalute

     

    Quote: Machinist said:
    Ho’s

    Machinist

    No, they’ve even got bad ho’s!

  • 21gunsalute

     

    Quote: Sucker said:
    Bad games & bad rules for card counters. Opportunities abound for advanced playing techniques. As far as the danger of being mugged; pay attention to your surroundings at all times & you’ll be just fine. Everyone I’ve ever heard of who got mugged did SOMETHING wrong which could have prevented it had they been a bit less careless.

    I don’t worry about getting mugged there because I won’t go there.

  • 21gunsalute

     

    Quote: creeping panther said:
    MJ, yes I have to agree with you, but for us with jobs, who work for a living 9-5 and play serious or rec. on the side, should always be attentive to the desires of those that have chosen to not have a 9-5 job, and play casino games full time, we should step aside for them, consider their needs not ours, defer to them, they are special…………………………NOT

    (Ya real special, like strong arming a none Pro AP in LV into giving up money he had won because the Pro was doing this for a living and the other AP was not, gotta love those Pro’s)

    CP

    I think I know the exact situation you speak of here. Yeah, they think they own certain machines, certain tables and…well…they think they own the whole damn casino along with everyone who sets foot in there. They should probably write their names on these machines and tables just so there’s no confusion as to who these machines and tables actually belong to. Of course we can’t expect them to ever get a real job because I don’t think they’re smart enough to make it out in the real world.

  • tulip

     

    Quote: 21gunsalute said:
    I think I know the exact situation you speak of here. Yeah, they think they own certain machines, certain tables and…well…they think they own the whole damn casino along with everyone who sets foot in there. They should probably write their names on these machines and tables just so there’s no confusion as to who these machines and tables actually belong to. Of course we can’t expect them to ever get a real job because I don’t think they’re smart enough to make it out in the real world.

    I know the type of people you speak of, and I can’t stand them. Thuggish behavior and intimidation towards fellow APs is totally unacceptable. It’s a sad state of affairs when APs resort to that.

    I think all APs would do well to remember that we all share a common adversary. Let’s not make things harder than they already are.

  • tthree

     

    Quote: tulip said:
    I know the type of people you speak of, and I can’t stand them. Thuggish behavior and intimidation towards fellow APs is totally unacceptable. It’s a sad state of affairs when APs resort to that.

    I think all APs would do well to remember that we all share a common adversary. Let’s not make things harder than they already are.

    What they don’t realize is the quickest way to end their opportunity is to do some of these disrespectful things to the wrong person. Some don’t show any mercy once war is declared on them. All that matters is revenge at any cost.

  • creeping panther

    Three

    Quote: tthree said:
    What they don’t realize is the quickest way to end their opportunity is to do some of these disrespectful things to the wrong person. Some don’t show any mercy once war is declared on them. All that matters is revenge at any cost.

    Wise words tthree

    But the worst of all, right at the top, is “Outing AP’s“, and yes, as you say,”Some don’t show any mercy once war is declared on them“.

    I have always spoke of respect,. Most serious problems come from showing a lack of respect to one another. Gang Bangers most often claim as a reason for a murder that a lack of respect was shown, they were dissed.

    A lack of respect to others can lead to so many needless conflicts and the end results can be catastrophic. I would hope we would all show respect to one another, or be ready to face those ugly consequences if you do not show that one simple thing, RESPECT.

    CP

  • Coyote

     

    Very good advice Tulip!

    Wouldn’t mind bombing a table with ya sometime.

  • blackjack avenger

    a fair statement

    Other techniques can bring heavier reaction from a casino. Greed probably being a major factor on the reaction or getting discovered.

  • bronco60

     

    Quote: Lonesome Gambler said:
    Interesting post. There are a lot of points made that should be taken into consideration by anyone interested in branching out into more advanced strategies. Here’s something I would add:

    When attempting to play games requiring advanced strategies, you must consider the consequences of the casino making the play. For card counters, the fallout from a backoff may simply consist of the inability to play on a particular shift for the next few weeks. As a result, many players moving over to advanced plays from basic card counting may not fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

    Many advanced strategies are not necessarily advanced in a technical capacity; they’re fairly simple to understand and implement on a fundamental level. However, there are many nuances of advanced plays that will not become apparent to new players until much later in their careers, which can cause problems when a new player attempts to put their newfound knowledge to good use while ignoring (or at least not understanding) the big picture.

    With many advanced strategies, if a play is made, a backoff isn’t all you have to worry about. Here are some very likely scenarios:

    – A brand new OSN/databse entry
    – A formal 86’ing (casinos don’t have a sense of humor about some advanced plays)
    – Transferring heat to associates
    – Games or even entire venues being fixed
    – People losing their jobs

    For casual or even serious recreational players, a backoff may be little more than a fun story to share with other APs later down the road, but the implications of strong games being burned out by well-meaning but inexperienced players run a lot deeper for those who count on game preservation for their livelihood.

    Making advanced plays isn’t just about memorizing charts and finding good game conditions — it’s also about understanding how the system works and knowing how to play the games and still live another day without having your name and face on all the latest flyers and mug book entries. While new players would do well to consider advanced plays in order to expand their repertoire and subsequently become better APs, they should make sure they fully understand the consequences of their actions before they jump into anything.

    Your consequences list left out:

    –Casino Employee commmitting suicide (yes, it happened)

    Many of the problems, particularly idiotic things like hitting hard 17, can be solved by the simple rule: don’t be greedy.

    Unfortunately, there are many idiot wannabe lol “APs”.

  • bronco60

     

    Quote: creeping panther said:
    MJ, yes I have to agree with you, but for us with jobs, who work for a living 9-5 and play serious or rec. on the side, should always be attentive to the desires of those that have chosen to not have a 9-5 job, and play casino games full time, we should step aside for them, consider their needs not ours, defer to them, they are special…………………………NOT

    (Ya real special, like strong arming a none Pro AP in LV into giving up money he had won because the Pro was doing this for a living and the other AP was not, gotta love those Pro’s)

    CP

    What? It’s hard to imagine somebody handing over a win on those grounds. What are the details?

  • Southpaw

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    Playing with your head right down on the table? (Like I do.) It’s true that will sometimes cause a particular game (or rather, one particular dealer on that shift) to get shut down but if that is the only way for me to exploit it, so what?

    Automatic Monkey, I certainly don’t mean to offend you in anyway, but that is just pathetic. Please stop doing this immediately.

    Let me dispel the myth that you have to sit low, sit far back, or be short to implement this strategy. You absolutely do not. If the game is good, you will see what you need to see while sitting like a normal patron.

    Spaw

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