Surrender Index Plays

Does anyone have a good source for correct surrender index plays? When I played in PA, I would stick to basic surrender strategy, but I feel like I should surrender more at + counts. I don't care about - count index plays. It seems logical to surrender more than basic strategy on high counts, particularly ace rich decks.

Aces?

First surrender index is a count index. We would need to know your counting system to answer this. Why do you think ace rich makes you want to surrender. Its not gonna bust you. Surrender versus a ten you know no ace under if dealer peeks. Surrender versus an ace in the hole is good making the ace into 2 or 12. In both of these cases an ace is a 1 making the dealer more likely to bust.

Only versus an 8 or 9 is the ace really a bad card. In these 2 cases the extra aces become a liability.

basic high-lo.

ace rich makes surrender better because less cards are used when surrendering and it could mean an extra round, in which case we love the aces.

Here are the ones I use:

8D H17
16 v 9, 15 v T, 15 v A = 0 (surrender if TC is >= 0)
15 v 9 = 2
14 v T = 3
16 v 8, 14 v A = 4
14 v 9 = 6
15 v 8 = 7
88 v T = 0
88 v 9 = 7

8D S17 (same as H17 except for dealer A)
16 v A = -1
15 v A = 2
14 v A = 6

0

Thanks a lot buddy.... pretty similar for 6D, S17, which is my specialty?

Zen Count Surrender Indexes

Zen Count Surrender Indexes

s17
17 vs Ace Reverse -6 (i.e., surrender at -6 or lower otherwise stand)
16 vs 8 +14
16 vs 9 +1
16 vs 10 -5
16 vs Ace -1
15 vs 9 +4
15 vs 10 0
15 vs Ace +3
14 vs 9 +9
14 vs 5 +5
14 vs Ace +9
13 vs 10 +12
88 vs 10 0
77 vs 10 +4

h17
17 vs Ace Reverse +2 (surrender +2 or lower otherwise stand)
16 vs Ace Surrender All
15 vs Ace -1
14 vs Ace +5
The rest of the above unchanged from s17

Hi Lo, Hi Opt II and Omega II have very similar indexes. So although the following indexes are intended for Omega II, they can also be used in Hi Lo or Hi Opt II. Also note that you check surrender first, then check hit/stand.

Memorize in group: (S17 multideck/PA rules)

Player total Dealer Upcard Indexes
16 {9,10,A} {1, -2, -0.5}
8 pair 10 1.5
15 {9,10,A} {3, 0, 2.5}
14 {9,10,A} {6, 3, 5}
7 pair 10 1
13 10 6.5
{16,15,14} 8 {5, 7, 11}

Surrender if true count is equal to or higher than the index.

Basically you memorize 3 rows (16,15,14) and 1 column (8), then 3 specials (8 pairs, 7 pairs, 13 against 10 only).

There is a fancy one that could be very helpful because it happens very often.

The index for 15 v 10 is 0. Actually it should cover only 66.6% of total of 15, i.e. your hands are 10 & 5, or 9 & 6.

The index for 8 & 7 is 0.5. (So if true count is 0, you should hit against dealer upcard 10 upcard. Surrender only if true count is 0.5 or higher.)

isn't surrender a decent counter catcher though? At least for some of them (15 vs. 10 being a good example), shouldn't i just surrender every time as cover, particularly if I hit the road at <-2?

Sure. Ploppies who use surrender use it too much anyway, so somebody would have to be carefully analyzing your play to realize you are using it correctly. Your bet spread will give you away first. The plays of 15 vs.10, 16 vs. 9, 16 vs. A (in a S17 game) and 88 vs. 10 all happen around a neutral count so a coin-flip type decision on these with a minimum bet down could possibly introduce enough randomness into your play to make you look like a hunch player.

Are you playing at a place that has someone watching for counters? If so they're gonna tag your ass for something sooner or later. Just find a place with a dumb crew and play optimally.

Don't give up your edge worrying about some ninja in surveillance catching you because you use surrender indices.

Adv Omega II

I don't know if you meant this, but Advanced Omega II indices for LS are:
16 {9,10,A} {2, -4, -1}
8 pair 10 3
15 {9,10,A} {6,0,5}
14 {9,10,A} {12,6,10}
13 {10} 13
All are ~ double what you mentioned.
If there is a different Omega II, I apologize, but at least you now have AOII's indices.

moo, is there a casino that doesn't have someone watching for counters? May not necessarily be an eye in the sky, but I would have to think that in some way shape or form, at least one person whether it be a pit boss or senior staff tracks it. I did play at a place that I think was clueless, and probably only got the boot because my cummulative win was ~40k and they are not a big time casino.

I agree with your assesment that surrender index plays are probably not a huge red flag, but don't think you can play optimimally all the time, in all ways, especially as a black chip player. I feel the need to use a lot of cover, although the surrender indicies may not be worth wasting when the counter catchers probably don't even know them.... plus I feel like these situations come up a lot, and are very profitable for the counter. Imagine all the profit from not only the higher BJ payouts on good counts, but watching the dealer bust his stiffs, while you get 1/2 back on your own. One book I read says LS is worth an extra 1/2 deck of Pen, and that is a lot IMO

Moo,

Your posts crack me up! Good advice, funny at the same time.

Ninjas...

To be compatible with Hi Lo indexes, I use -1 for ten, -0.5 for 9, +1 for 4,5,6 and +0.5 for 2,3,7. Or in other words, to compare different counting system effectively, I force the value of ten to -1 in all systems. Otherwise, true count will be double in level 2 system under the same circumstance. This way, you can see the difference among all major counting methods are very subtle. You can even use the same set of indexes for Hi Lo, Hi Opt II, Zen or Omega II.

I know what you are saying

I understand what you are saying but you still didnt quite use the right words to express yourself. Your last sentence as written doesnt say what you are trying to say. Since you know what you are trying to say its hard for you to see. I got what you meant the first time as well but you did an even worse job of choosing the right words.

No problem. I understand. I just didn't want anyone to think they were AOII indices...Plus, you scared me! I thought I'd been using wrong indices all these years!

Yes, I can think of probably 4 of them off the top of my head. And no, I'm not telling! :laugh:

Seriously, though, the edge counting cards is too small to give up part of it for cover. You can use cover, but it had better be on a damn good game (single deck, or 90% pen) and you should seriously consider compensating for your cover.

For example, I often use betting cover when I spread 1-30 in really good shoe games. However, if I was not using cover, I would be spreading 1-15 ruthlessly while probably wonging out. Hell, wonging out is almost mandatory for shoe games, it's so good for the bottom line.

I mean, in all honesty, it could be me and Ken in the surveillance room, and I doubt we'd ever tag someone based on their surrender indexes. Betting spreads, MAYBE 16 vs. 10 or insurance. But not 14,15 vs. 10 or anything.