Hole-Carding legality

google " Einbinder/Dalben "

According to the Supreme Court, Hole-carding IS LEGAL.
We, the customers, are not responsible for making sure that the casino trains its employees to hide the hole card. If we see it, we get to use the information.

Cheating is not legal, using a mirror (shiner) or a device to see the hole card will get you put in jail.

Spooking is NOT legal. The casino must protect their games from the players. It is unreasonable to expect them to protect the game from those outside the game. Spooking is NOT legal.

The casinos are like that creapy person at the corner bar. They are always trying to get you drunk so they can take ADVANTAGE of you. Do not ever hesitate to take advantage of them, they NEVER hesitate to take if from you.

how come people will say "according to the courts.." but then they will also say "it depends what state your in".. such as card counting, you CANT be booted for doing it in some states, but you can in others (but i know in all states you cant be arrested)? if you say spooking and shiners are illegal, but just looking at the card sitting at the table is, then im assuming it is somewhat of a gray area, and you are not 100% safe, but if you sit there just like all the other players im sure you will be fine, but if your head is down on the felt or something, perhaps there could be trouble, but probably not.. btw, you should give the link of your post to many of the people on here who claim its illegal, like cardcounter (i think)

As long as were are speaking about holecarding

I have a question. I hole card often on Indian land. Guess you can guess my question. What if the Heckawee Tribe next week decides that both holecarding and cardcounting are illegal? What are the ramifications?

A banning from tribal land is something they can do with it not being illegal, but I believe tribal jail is only for tribal members, so I would be turned over to the state or whatever, whose laws I did not break. Or is it something else.

ihate17

Spooking legality

Your protection of state law doesn't cease just because you are on tribal land. Im sure they would just boot you, but may try to hold your winnings.
My question is about spooking. Signaling dealer hole cards from a person not playing the game is illegal, but what if I am signalling to another player while I am also playing? Playing this advantage with a partner cuts down on the variance, allows spreading to more hands, and often the hole card can only be viewed from one seat at the table. Am I breaking the law when I signal another seated player? I would think not but have never read a definite answer.
BW

Not a lawyer

My thinking is that if the information is available to one player on the table, his sharing that information with another player at the same table is legal, at least in Nevada. I could be wrong, but it does at least sound logical to me.
The use of an agent on another table, would be the signaling of information that was not available at your table and thus illegal.

ihate17

reply to SB420

Laws are written with great intent, but not he foresight to see all situations for application. In time, courts must uphold and or dismiss cases based on their interpretation of said law. As the courts make these decisions the law morphs. It becomes more complicated. Some basics remain.

Every state in the union, district, territory and "sovereign stat"(like a reservation) is required to obey all federal laws. If a crime occurs on US soil, outside of a state or DC, the Feds. are responsible. A reservation is outside of the states, but within the control of the Federal government.

Hole carding has never been legally defined as cheating in any law book or journal that I can find. It is not illegal, it never has been. On the one single case where the very corrupt State of NV decided to maliciously prosecute a customer. The customer was NOT a pro but was playing with a friend. All he did was look at the hole card as the dealer exposed it and shared the information accidently given to him by the dealer. Cheating is when the dealer is intentionally showing the card.

Casino's would have no one working for them if they arrested every dealer for making a mistake in front of a customer. Casinos would not need dealers since all the customer's who saw a dealer error would be in jail, too. Thank god we can't be jailed for watching someone else's mistakes!

States are not supposed to arrest and charge people with crimes that are not "on the books". Law enforcement mistakes happen, we're all human-believe it or not. However, this case was different. No jurisdiction any where in the US had ever had a conviction for hole-carding. The D/E case was an attempt to CREATE a law which was not on the books. The effort to create this law failed, it was appealed and failed again.

States have court systems with the most supreme being the supreme court i.e. The Supreme Court of the State of Nevada. The US government has a bunch of laws that are dictated to all states. These are Federal laws. They go to a different court system, Federal court. The Federal court systems most supreme court is the Supreme Court of the Untied States.

So, there are a whole bunch of supreme courts out there. You don't need to worry about what a court did or said what, in this case. Since no law was ever broken. The state was trying to get a conviction which would produce precedent. This would essentially have the same effect as a new law being written, except created instantly.

The real question here should be: Are there any State or Federal Laws prohibiting hole-card play?. I cannot find any nor any references to cases in which this was the issue.

Lastly, none of this is legal advise.

Good Luck and Cheers
Paradox