Blackjack advantages in Sweden

  • Sandery3

    Blackjack advantages in Sweden

    I live in Sweden and have recently started practicing card counting. Although i am able to keep track of the count and play basic strategy, i’m not totally sure about the possible percental advantage in card counting according to Swedish rules.
    I heard from a friend who is supposed to be a very capable card counter that the circumstances and rules in sweden provide great privileges compared to card counting in the US.

    I have heard claims that there actually is a player advantage by 4% just by playing according to basic strategy (a very unusual skill in Sweden). By what i have read on this forum, merely playing basic strategy would allow twice the profits in Sweden compared to professional card counting in the US.

    Is it possible that it actually is true?

  • Percy

     

    Afraid I’ve heard to the contrary.

    See http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/blackjack-basicstrategy.html

    About a third of the way down he answers a question on blackjack in scandanavia.

    If these rules still stand, then I woudn’t suggest trying to overcome this edge by counting. 6% is just too big! (even with great pen)

    However, blackjack rules do change so maybe go and check out your nearest casinos to see if the games have improved.

  • FLASH1296

     

    My understanding is that all BJ available in Western Europe and Scandinavia is absurdly poor.

    I certainly hope that I am wrong, but The Wizard of Odds is an impeccable source.

    There is good BJ to play in Eastern Europe, e.g. Ukraine, Poland

    There the House Edge is generally about .35%

    Russia recently closed all of it’s casinos.

  • UK-21

     

    Depends what you compare things with. Games in the UK (6D, S17, DOA, DAS, RSA, NS) are certainly no worse than H17 shoe games in the States, despite the “naturals only” insurance rule and no hole card effect.

    The answer is, of course, to know the rules in force and any of the “exentricities” that have a profound effect.

  • Sandery3

     

    Quote: Percy said:
    Afraid I’ve heard to the contrary.

    See http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/blackjack-basicstrategy.html

    About a third of the way down he answers a question on blackjack in scandanavia.

    If these rules still stand, then I woudn’t suggest trying to overcome this edge by counting. 6% is just too big! (even with great pen)

    However, blackjack rules do change so maybe go and check out your nearest casinos to see if the games have improved.

    Thanks for the responses.

    I don’t actually think those rules are used nowadays.
    Where i have played neither NDAS, D9, nor 1spl are applied. The rule “dealer wins ties 17-19″ is still applied.
    Surely this wouldn’t affect the house edge by 4-6%?

  • SleightOfHand

     

    Quote: Sandery3 said:
    Thanks for the responses.

    I don’t actually think those rules are used nowadays.
    Where i have played neither NDAS, D9, nor 1spl are applied. The rule “dealer wins ties 17-19″ is still applied.
    Surely this wouldn’t affect the house edge by 4-6%?

    The dealer wins ties is a HUGE boost in HE. Wizard of Odds shows that this rule increases HE by 5.3%

  • FLASH1296

     

    Such a game is bizarrely bad.

    In the U S A the “dealer takes ties” rule is only seen when there is an actual bona fide one-day charity event, in which nobody expects to have any chance to win

    The game is entirely unbeatable.

    Bare in mind that a Basic Strategy player will experience over 9% “ties”

  • Sandery3

     

    I have now confirmed that NDAS, D7-11 and dealer wins ties 17-19 is applied at swedish casinos.

  • rukus

     

    Quote: Sandery3 said:
    I have now confirmed that NDAS, D7-11 and dealer wins ties 17-19 is applied at swedish casinos.

    just a small update, i believe there are now certain casinos in one or two scandinavian countries that do not have this dealer wins ties rule. i know of at least one casino. still not a phenomenal game though…

  • leopard

     

    The Swedish rules at the proper state casino (NOT bars and clubs, where the rules are a rip-off as described above):

    6 decks, shuffle machine

    Dealer stands on 17, including soft 17. Ties are treated as normal standoffs, dealer does NOT win.

    Double down permitted on 9, 10, 11

    Double down NOT allowed on soft hands

    Double down permitted after split

    Split Aces, one card only, 21 pays even money. Re-split of Aces allowed.

    Insurance offered. Also I think an even money payout is offered if player has BJ v dealer A (or 10, not sure).

    7-7-7 pays immediate even money bonus, hand itself played out as normal.

    Anyone know what the house edge is if playing basic strategy?

  • tezzadiver

     

    Quote: leopard said:
    The Swedish rules at the proper state casino (NOT bars and clubs, where the rules are a rip-off as described above):

    6 decks, shuffle machine

    Dealer stands on 17, including soft 17. Ties are treated as normal standoffs, dealer does NOT win.

    Double down permitted on 9, 10, 11

    Double down NOT allowed on soft hands

    Double down permitted after split

    Split Aces, one card only, 21 pays even money. Re-split of Aces allowed.

    Insurance offered. Also I think an even money payout is offered if player has BJ v dealer A (or 10, not sure).

    7-7-7 pays immediate even money bonus, hand itself played out as normal.

    Anyone know what the house edge is if playing basic strategy?

    Do you mean Blackjack pays even money? Forget this game- The house edge will be astronomical.
    Pretty sick rules. Casino`s like these should be outlawed in my opinion. Greedy bastards.

  • leopard

     

    Quote: tezzadiver said:
    Do you mean Blackjack pays even money? Forget this game- The house edge will be astronomical.
    Pretty sick rules. Casino`s like these should be outlawed in my opinion. Greedy bastards.

    Thanks for the fast response, tezzadiver.

    No, blackjack still pays 3-2.

    However: when splitting aces, there is no BJ, 21 pays even money. And even money is offered (but doesn’t have to be taken, and shouldn’t, of course), if you have BJ to dealer’s A.

  • tezzadiver

     

    Quote: leopard said:
    Thanks for the fast response, tezzadiver.

    No, blackjack still pays 3-2.

    However: when splitting aces, there is no BJ, 21 pays even money. And even money is offered (but doesn’t have to be taken, and shouldn’t, of course), if you have BJ to dealer’s A.

    I get 0.51% HE

    I assume no hole card dealt? European style?

    Well its not the best of games and of course you can`t count with it as they use CSM`s (continuous shuffler machines) ?

    If this was a shoe dealt game- I would still take even money on a dealer ace, If I was showing a BJ at a true count of plus 3.

  • tezzadiver

     

    Apologies- Make that 0.57%

    Pretty worthless game IMHO. Maybe ok for practicing basic strategy.

  • leopard

     

    Yes, European style, no hole card dealt.

    Thanks very much for the swift response – much appreciated.

  • FLASH1296

     

    Being unable to double your soft hands is quite costly; requiring DEEP
    penetration and/or a wide bet ramp to make the game exploitable.

  • bronco60

     

    Quote: FLASH1296 said:
    Being unable to double your soft hands is quite costly; requiring DEEP
    penetration and/or a wide bet ramp to make the game exploitable.

    No it isn’t. It costs about .1 to the basic strategy edge, and isn’t all that well correlated with the count.

  • FLASH1296

    Game selection is a primary skill.

    .1% is significant in BJ.

    The BJ games that I play have e.v.’s from .14 to .35

    Ergo, adding .10 is HIGHLY significant.

    My skills pay my bills; and game selection is a primary skill.

  • bronco60

     

    Quote: FLASH1296 said:
    .1% is significant in BJ.

    The BJ games that I play have e.v.’s from .14 to .35

    Ergo, adding .10 is HIGHLY significant.

    My skills pay my bills; and game selection is a primary skill.

    Except that you said:

    “Being unable to double your soft hands is quite costly; requiring DEEP
    penetration and/or a wide bet ramp to make the game exploitable.”

    Nope, it is NOT “quite costly”, and the lack of the rule does NOT necessarily require deep penetration or some massive spread to be overcome.

    Its lack is of modest significance, way down on the list compared to slightly better penetration, ls/rsa, heat, spreads, and other issues.

  • FLASH1296

     

    Semantic arguments are a waste of time; so removing the verbiage I shall stick to the numbers.

    Thus, if you are playing a game with a House Edge of .3% and you add .1% you have inflated your disadvantage by 33%.

  • bronco60

     

    Quote: FLASH1296 said:
    Semantic arguments are a waste of time; so removing the verbiage I shall stick to the numbers.

    Thus, if you are playing a game with a House Edge of .3% and you add .1% you have inflated your disadvantage by 33%.

    By this line of thinking, going from a game with 0.0 edge off the top to one with 0.1 edge off the top means you have “inflated your disadvantage” infinitely!

    Which is senseless.

    For a card counter, going from a game with to a game without soft double means making about .1 less money times aggregate bet, which is a useful amount but not a game-changing, massive figure.

    For some kind of basic strategy player well yeah, you’ll lose your money somewhat faster in the latter but so what? Either way, you’re still a loser.

    So are we talking about BS losers here, or card counters?

  • FLASH1296

     

    If I was referring to a Basic Strategy player I would indicate same.

    A card counter armed with a matrix of indices for Basic Strategy Departure plays will be making MORE soft doubles, (at opportune moments) than will a B. S. Player.

  • tthree

     

    Quote: FLASH1296 said:
    If I was referring to a Basic Strategy player I would indicate same.

    A card counter armed with a matrix of indices for Basic Strategy Departure plays will be making MORE soft doubles, (at opportune moments) than will a B. S. Player.

    For those who can’t see the big picture soft doubling allows you to double many large bets as a counter that a BS player would not double. When you decide what a rule is worth for a counter if it affects your large bets more it is worth a lot more than to a BS player. You ramp your bets more to make up for the .19% or more that soft doubling may be worth to a counter the loss of soft doubling costs you even more with the larger spread. Flash is not quoting what the rule is worth to a counter because it depends on his spread. The larger the spread the more it is worth.

  • tthree

    Flash is right about the most important skill being game selection.

    I have been reading posts about horrible losing streaks. I have been lucky enough to avoid them. I have some isolated nightmare shoes but not the streaks. I think this is due to 2 factors. The strength of the system I use and more importantly the refusal to play crappy games. Tarzan continues to hammer this point home every time I see him. He plays a much more powerful system than I do yet he refuses to play crap games or poor penetration. I bet he has similar results at avoiding the huge downswings. Your most important skill is picking only the best games and never burning them by getting backed off or banned.

  • FLASH1296

     

    tthree is correct and has stated it clearly, concisely, and comprehensively.

    The best illustration of this factor references Late Surrender.

    The value of L.S. is inversely proportional to the number of decks used.

    It is worth considerably more in an 8 deck shoe than it is in a single deck game.

    What is most noteworthy about the value of this option is that a basic strategist only
    surrenders 4 hand-matchups in a S17 shoe game; while a Card Counter will avail himself
    of surrendering on as many as 12 hand match-ups, especially if an advanced count with a
    high “Playing Efficiency” is utilized, e.g. Zen, RPC, Mentor, Hi-Opt II, or AOII.

    The value of L.S. is proportional to the “width” of the betting ramp (or “spread”)
    as the higher the True Count, the greater is the opportunity to correctly surrender
    a hand. At the higher true counts the bets have grown in size.

    To simplify the matter, Late surrender may be worth about .20% to a Basic Strategist,
    but can (conceivably) be worth twice that !

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