Play a hand with me!

  • SleightOfHand

    Play a hand with me!

    Hey guys, here a poker hand that I had yesterday that I would like some feedback on.

    This is a $2/$5 game and we are effectively $800 deep.

    I raise 22 UTG and I get 2 callers that have position on me.

    The flop comes 2d9cTd
    I bet $50 into $65.
    MP folds, CO calls (Note: CO is a pretty big fish).

    The turn comes Qd
    and I bet $120 in $165 and CO calls.

    River comes 3d with a pot of $405.

    What is the best play here?

    I raised UTG, so I can represent a big diamond fairly easily, mostly big pocket pairs, but the CO also has some big diamonds in his range: AT, A9, KT, K9, JQ, JK (maybe, although he could raise the turn), JJ… Hes a fish so can he fold J high?

  • PonyPrincess

     

    Fold preflop.

    As played check/fold river.

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    Raising UG seems pretty loose with 22. What are the stack sizes to start?

  • SleightOfHand

     

    I said in the op that we are $800 deep. But fold PF? Lol that is definitely not happening. Even limping is super weak. This isn’t kiddie poker 😛

  • SleightOfHand

     

    The reason limping small pocket pairs is inferior, is because with raising, you now have 2 ways to win: catching the set or making them fold with a cbet. This is a game where aggression wins. Maybe for players who just want to play tight with a moderate win rate can fold pocket pairs, but my UTG range includes all pocket pairs and essentially any suited connectors. I may fold if I feel nitty or maybe limp 1/4 times, but these are strong hands and when playing deep, catching draws is where a huge amount of money is made.

  • tezzadiver

     

    I have to agree with ponyprincess- fold preflop unless you are playing with fewer players.
    You never specified?

  • Jack_Black

     

    guys, obviously the OP is asking how to play a small PP and especially in this situation. so quit saying to fold because that’s not the advice he’s looking for. nothing wrong with having small PPs in your range. And No, that’s not a double entendre!!!

    UTG huh? Well the CO is a fish, and I’m assuming the table is very loose.

    I would think that this all depends on how much of a fish I think the guy is. If he’s a great big bluefin tuna, you’re in trouble. He’s a calling station and won’t fold. Better check and hope he has just 2 pair or lower.

    If you’ve beaten him up real bad a few times on earlier hands, he might have learned his lesson. I’ve never met a fish who played a few hours at my table learn at least this lesson real quick. he’s only been calling because he’s afraid of you. Fire the third barrel at potsize because now there’s the chance he will fold.

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    If you bet the river I don’t see any hand in his range that you can beat if he calls the river bet. So if you bet he is either folding when you win or calling or reraising when you lose. So I would check, and either fold or call when he bets depending on the size of his bet and what info you have gathered on him so far.

    Are you asking if you think he can lay down a middling flush if you make a big bet? I guess that depends on what kind of fish he is. A lot of fish won’t fold any flush.

  • Jack_Black

     

    Oh wait, you mean in the actual hand he turned over Jh, and you want to know if he would fold that? No, he won’t fold unless you go all in, which is too aggressive playing for me.

  • SleightOfHand

     

    Quote: tezzadiver said:
    I have to agree with ponyprincess- fold preflop unless you are playing with fewer players.
    You never specified?

    I guess I just totally disagree. It was a 9 handed table, but I’ll raise it 10 handed too. The reason it is suggested to fold those kinds of hands in EP is because playing drawing hands OOP is not as easy is playing it IP, especially when you are probably beat or chopping preflop. However, I can tell you that a strong player’s skill can overcome the card and positional disadvantage of probably 90% of the player pool fairly easily. This isn’t online, this is fish in a barrel

    Quote: Richard Munchkin said:
    If you bet the river I don’t see any hand in his range that you can beat if he calls the river bet. So if you bet he is either folding when you win or calling or reraising when you lose. So I would check, and either fold or call when he bets depending on the size of his bet and what info you have gathered on him so far.

    Are you asking if you think he can lay down a middling flush if you make a big bet? I guess that depends on what kind of fish he is. A lot of fish won’t fold any flush.

    The river bet would be a bluff, not a value bet. The question is not only IF he can lay down a flush, but also how likely he is holding a flush and how big of a flush he can lay down if he has one.

    Quote: Jack_Black said:
    guys, obviously the OP is asking how to play a small PP and especially in this situation. so quit saying to fold because that’s not the advice he’s looking for. nothing wrong with having small PPs in your range. And No, that’s not a double entendre!!!

    UTG huh? Well the CO is a fish, and I’m assuming the table is very loose.

    I would think that this all depends on how much of a fish I think the guy is. If he’s a great big bluefin tuna, you’re in trouble. He’s a calling station and won’t fold. Better check and hope he has just 2 pair or lower.

    If you’ve beaten him up real bad a few times on earlier hands, he might have learned his lesson. I’ve never met a fish who played a few hours at my table learn at least this lesson real quick. he’s only been calling because he’s afraid of you. Fire the third barrel at potsize because now there’s the chance he will fold.

    Oh wait, you mean in the actual hand he turned over Jh, and you want to know if he would fold that? No, he won’t fold unless you go all in, which is too aggressive playing for me.

    He did not have the Jd

  • tthree

     

    Quote: SleightOfHand said:
    I guess I just totally disagree. It was a 9 handed table, but I’ll raise it 10 handed too. The reason it is suggested to fold those kinds of hands in EP is because playing drawing hands OOP is not as easy is playing it IP, especially when you are probably beat or chopping preflop. However, I can tell you that a strong player’s skill can overcome the card and positional disadvantage of probably 90% of the player pool fairly easily. This isn’t online, this is fish in a barrel

    The river bet would be a bluff, not a value bet. The question is not only IF he can lay down a flush, but also how likely he is holding a flush and how big of a flush he can lay down if he has one.

    He did not have the Jd

    I love playing against people like you. I know what I have and you don’t. I know you are going to play aggressive with crap. It is only a matter of patience before I get a huge payoff. The whole time you will think I’m a fish. Then you will push me all-in and I’ll flip the nutz.

    So are you ready to say how you played it?

  • SleightOfHand

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    I love playing against people like you. I know what I have and you don’t. I know you are going to play aggressive with crap. It is only a matter of patience before I get a huge payoff. The whole time you will think I’m a fish. Then you will push me all-in and I’ll flip the nutz.

    So are you ready to say how you played it?

    lol come over my table any time Anyway, it went check/check and he had J9 with the 9d /facepalm lol

  • SleightOfHand

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    I love playing against people like you. I know what I have and you don’t. I know you are going to play aggressive with crap. It is only a matter of patience before I get a huge payoff. The whole time you will think I’m a fish. Then you will push me all-in and I’ll flip the nutz.

    So are you ready to say how you played it?

    Don’t think that just because people are loose and aggressive, they are going to bet into you or that they bet with crap. Stone cold bluffs are very uncommon. And to say that I don’t know where I am might show a little bit of ignorance, as I typed out the kind of range that my opponent could have (at least the hands that beat me). The key is to bet with controlled aggression. When bluffing, I almost always bluffing with outs of some sort. When considering fold equity and how much equity you already have in the hand with outs, making what could appear to be crazy bluffs a very standard move. I posted my results on this board before and I think it helps prove my point that I am not a fish, but then again, maybe I am (well, I guess it wouldn’t be fish, but maniac) 😛

    So, you would just fold it preflop then? Like I said before, I don’t have a problem with folding those kinds of hands preflop, but passivity like that is only costing solid players.

  • Dyepaintball12

     

    SOH vs. tthree…

    SOH wins.

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    SOH,

    When you say fish I think of people who would call with any flush and some who would call with a straight. In the games I play in fish are hard to bluff.

  • tthree

     

    Quote: Dyepaintball12 said:
    SOH vs. tthree…

    SOH wins.

    Your probably right. My main game is blackjack. Sounds like he is a poker specialist. But I still love setting up the aggressor.

  • SleightOfHand

     

    If I were in the CO, you guys wouldn’t have mentioned the PF raise, so what’s the difference if I were UTG or CO? Nothing! This guys range is exactly the s and my range is (almost) the same. The only thing folding it in EP does is make te situation less common. But once we learn how to play the situation, who cares? Now we can raise UTG an play it right all the time

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    Quote: SleightOfHand said:
    If I were in the CO, you guys wouldn’t have mentioned the PF raise, so what’s the difference if I were UTG or CO? Nothing! This guys range is exactly the s and my range is (almost) the same. The only thing folding it in EP does is make te situation less common. But once we learn how to play the situation, who cares? Now we can raise UTG an play it right all the time

    What about the 5 other players beside him that all act after you? You know your game and your players so I can see you are comfortable with this, but what are you doing with 22 when someone comes over the top at you?

  • SleightOfHand

     

    Quote: Richard Munchkin said:
    SOH,

    When you say fish I think of people who would call with any flush and some who would call with a straight. In the games I play in fish are hard to bluff.

    Fish are hard to bluff, but they can still see 4 to a fluh on the board. I really doubt anyone’s calling with a straight (although it does happen).

  • SleightOfHand

     

    Quote: Richard Munchkin said:
    What about the 5 other players beside him that all act after you? You know your game and your players so I can see you are comfortable with this, but what are you doing with 22 when someone comes over the top at you?

    Depends on the situation. It could possibly be a call with an aggro tourney short stacker who squeezes after a few callers, but 90% it’s a fold :/

    It’s also different if it’s a reg battle

  • tthree

     

    Quote: richard munchkin said:
    what about the 5 other players beside him that all act after you? You know your game and your players so i can see you are comfortable with this, but what are you doing with 22 when someone comes over the top at you?

    x2

  • SleightOfHand

     

    Quote: SleightOfHand said:
    Depends on the situation. It could possibly be a call with an aggro tourney short stacker who squeezes after a few callers, but 90% it’s a fold :/

    It’s also different if it’s a reg battle

    The thing about playing live in Vegas is that players don’t catch on to your tendencies because te players always change. When you play these games, you can see that loose 3 betting preflop is uncommon and 4 betting loose is almost almost only AA and KK (sometimes QQ and AK)

    Edit: this is about 2/5, I’m not extremely familiar with 5/10. Also different for 1/2

  • tthree

     

    Quote: SleightOfHand said:
    The thing about playing live in Vegas is that players don’t catch on to your tendencies because te players always change. When you play these games, you can see that loose 3 betting preflop is uncommon and 4 betting loose is almost almost only AA and KK (sometimes QQ and AK)

    Edit: this is about 2/5, I’m not extremely familiar with 5/10. Also different for 1/2

    You should hit AC. It is a sea of grey hair. Flinch at your chips and they are ready to fold.

  • PonyPrincess

     

    I know this isn’t what the topic started as but realistically you are going to lose a lot of money on hands like small pocket pairs and suited connectors UTG at a full table in the long run. Even against total droolers you’d be lucky if they broke even.

    It’s even worse against people you have no reads on if you think about how unbalanced your range is and how often you miss flops like dry Kxx, Axx are they calling preflop with K7s? Are check folding those flops or are you barrelling two streets? Three? It’s really, really tough to make it profitable.

  • SleightOfHand

     

    Quote: PonyPrincess said:
    I know this isn’t what the topic started as but realistically you are going to lose a lot of money on hands like small pocket pairs and suited connectors UTG at a full table in the long run. Even against total droolers you’d be lucky if they broke even.

    It’s even worse against people you have no reads on if you think about how unbalanced your range is and how often you miss flops like dry Kxx, Axx are they calling preflop with K7s? Are check folding those flops or are you barrelling two streets? Three? It’s really, really tough to make it profitable.

    Lol I am cbetting those flops all the time. And yes, following can be a variety of double/triple barrels, check raises,… It all depends whats on the board and the range of hands I am able to represent. Poker is about representing hands, not just playing the ones you have

    It’s true, my cbetting range is quite unbalanced towards bluffs. However, like I said, this isn’t like online where you are trying to balance and polarize ranges. the game I play right now is admittedly quite exploitable, but strongly +ev against players who aren’t very good. It’s averaging ~27 BB/100, so it can’t be that bad

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