I have been counting for about a year with my dad,we do it together so we have something we can do together.(the family that counts together stays together).Today my dad called me and asked me a question i couldnt answer.He wanted to know that if we were at a six deck table with poor pen ,say 70% or one and a half decks cut off.why could we not count it as a four deck game.I didnt have an answer and said i would put the question to the great people on this forum.Thanks for the help.
Can a six deck with bad pen be counted as a 4 deck.
- Thread starter pawnbroker
- Start date
Answer turns out to be no
This thread will answer your question, I think.
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3197
If all the ranks of cards were evenly distributed throughout the shoe, then it would work. But you can't assume that's the case.
This thread will answer your question, I think.
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3197
If all the ranks of cards were evenly distributed throughout the shoe, then it would work. But you can't assume that's the case.
I would go as far as to say you could turn a six deck game into a 2 deck with 100% penetration and with a built in advantage if you are proficient at shuffletracking. Especially tracking negative slugs and cutting them into play.
For example say you just counted a shoe and there was a 1/2 deck span of that shoe that went negative by 11. Say you've been practicing tracking and can easily follow that -11 packet through the next shuffle. Of course it will become diluted with the shuffle but it will still be a strong play. Generally a typical 2 pass shuffle will turn that 1/2 a deck you're tracking into a about 2 decks with the shuffled in cards. Now you need to figure out what is the makeup of the cards added to the 1/2 deck you tracked. What you do is divide 11 by the remaining decks uncounted, 5.5, remember you already counted the other 1/2 deck the previous shoe. That gives you 2. That means for every deck there is 2 extra low cards because of the high concentration of high cards in your track. So since there is 1 1/2 uncounted decks in your 2 deck tracked packet you subtract 3 from 11 giving you a running count of 8 for 2 decks, which in turn gives you a true count of 4 and a nice advantage once you cut those 2 decks to the front to be played. Play the track just like that, if you were right with the track the count should drop at least 75% of the time but you should be able to maintain the advantage throughout the 2 decks. But once the 2 decks are done you should either stop betting or bet minimum because you will no longer have an advantage and the count will no longer be a true representation of whats really left in the shoe. Its not easy to do, but it really makes up for being stuck with bad penetration or high negative counts. As a matter of fact I sometimes find myself wishing for the count to really tank if I know I have a trackable game and dealer.
For example say you just counted a shoe and there was a 1/2 deck span of that shoe that went negative by 11. Say you've been practicing tracking and can easily follow that -11 packet through the next shuffle. Of course it will become diluted with the shuffle but it will still be a strong play. Generally a typical 2 pass shuffle will turn that 1/2 a deck you're tracking into a about 2 decks with the shuffled in cards. Now you need to figure out what is the makeup of the cards added to the 1/2 deck you tracked. What you do is divide 11 by the remaining decks uncounted, 5.5, remember you already counted the other 1/2 deck the previous shoe. That gives you 2. That means for every deck there is 2 extra low cards because of the high concentration of high cards in your track. So since there is 1 1/2 uncounted decks in your 2 deck tracked packet you subtract 3 from 11 giving you a running count of 8 for 2 decks, which in turn gives you a true count of 4 and a nice advantage once you cut those 2 decks to the front to be played. Play the track just like that, if you were right with the track the count should drop at least 75% of the time but you should be able to maintain the advantage throughout the 2 decks. But once the 2 decks are done you should either stop betting or bet minimum because you will no longer have an advantage and the count will no longer be a true representation of whats really left in the shoe. Its not easy to do, but it really makes up for being stuck with bad penetration or high negative counts. As a matter of fact I sometimes find myself wishing for the count to really tank if I know I have a trackable game and dealer.
To give a little more detail on the original question, because the pack is composed of the cards from 6 decks, the 4 decks you end up playing against could end up having all the 4, 5 and 6's from the full 6 decks. Now this would be very very bad for you. The same could happen the other way, with you getting all the high cards, but how are you going to know when this happens? Only getting to see more of the cards will give you more information and hence a beter game. If you could ensure that you had a 4 deck section composed of 4 complete decks, this would be a valid strategy, but as far as i'm aware that's not possible.
If you think about it, there wouldn't be much point to the casinos using multiple decks if they could be beaten that easily.
As to shuffle tracking Bo's completely right. That does solve the penetration problem, but you have to be VERY accurate. If you are more than a few cards out you can kiss goodbye to your advantage (even if you only missed one or two of your high cards, you'll end up overbetting which will destroy you bankroll). That said i wouldn't discourage you.
RJT.
If you think about it, there wouldn't be much point to the casinos using multiple decks if they could be beaten that easily.
As to shuffle tracking Bo's completely right. That does solve the penetration problem, but you have to be VERY accurate. If you are more than a few cards out you can kiss goodbye to your advantage (even if you only missed one or two of your high cards, you'll end up overbetting which will destroy you bankroll). That said i wouldn't discourage you.
RJT.
Only in a perfect world. The problem is that you would need to track all track zones that would end up in the 2 deck slug you cut out and the dealer would have to grab and riffle perfectly to keep from blurring the borders of the slug. So your information about the slug will be diluted somewhat. But, the example illustrates the power of tracking. You can certainly gain a great deal by cutting out a bad slug without perfect information.
okay, new question. how long would it take someone to play a winning shuffletracking game? right now i can straight count w/ the hi/low. the only problem i have with shuffletracking, is that i feel that it is very difficult to guage you're on skill in it. for example, if i use the high low, i can get somone to deal an 8D shoe to me, and then i can check the end to see how accurate i was. When you're right, you'll know you're right. In shuffletracking it just seems a lot more ambiguous. So obviously i'll need to be really good at it before i use it.
It takes a good amount more time than it does to learn to count.
Tracking - espically through 2 pass shuffles - you need to keep your accuracy to a very high level. If you're out by a few cards on each grab, you can kiss your advantage goodbye.
If you put some thought into it, you can come up with a host of exercises to help you learn. An example would be to take a 1/2 deck out of your shoe, shade one side of the cards in with a pen. Put it in, examine the side of the deck, then turn the stack around so you can't see the shaded side of the packet. Complete a full shuffle and try and cut the shaded cards to the top.
If you really want to learn, pick up Arnold Snyder's 'Shuffle Tracker's Cookbook'
Hope this helps mate.
RJT.
Tracking - espically through 2 pass shuffles - you need to keep your accuracy to a very high level. If you're out by a few cards on each grab, you can kiss your advantage goodbye.
If you put some thought into it, you can come up with a host of exercises to help you learn. An example would be to take a 1/2 deck out of your shoe, shade one side of the cards in with a pen. Put it in, examine the side of the deck, then turn the stack around so you can't see the shaded side of the packet. Complete a full shuffle and try and cut the shaded cards to the top.
If you really want to learn, pick up Arnold Snyder's 'Shuffle Tracker's Cookbook'
Hope this helps mate.
RJT.
It is a total pain in the......., but as it goes the only one that i find proves compitence with regards to the full practice. All the others exercises fine tune different aspects of your play, but fail to show you if you're combining everything and still getting positive results.
What i'm currently working on is tracking multiple packets through the shuffle. It's a lot trickier, but i've found it's not as hard as i'd first imagined.
I've also been getting my gf to cut, then taking the cut card and identifying where my packet would be in the lying stack, to simulate the times when you can't avoid a ploppy cutting the shoe.
RJT.
What i'm currently working on is tracking multiple packets through the shuffle. It's a lot trickier, but i've found it's not as hard as i'd first imagined.
I've also been getting my gf to cut, then taking the cut card and identifying where my packet would be in the lying stack, to simulate the times when you can't avoid a ploppy cutting the shoe.
RJT.
Its just for training purposes. You don't want to have to wade through shoe after shoe wating for something to track. For practice its best to set the cards up so you can actually practice your techniques everytime and at the same time check exact accuracy, as thats what you're going to need to shuffletrack with any degree of success. Its the same when we practice playing shoes for just counting. We always set the shoe up so that the count will increase so we can test ourselves on true count conversions, proper betting amounts, indice plays, and proper payouts. Otherwise you can be sitting there for a long time doing nothing but counting. By setting up the shoe you are practicing doing everything and making the most of your practice time.
Yeh, but truth told i don't track just the high cards - i track a 1/2-3/4 packet. You're completely right in that you don't get a 1/2 deck of just high cards, so you have to accept the fact that while you're tracking your good slug, you've also got to track the guff around it, whether that be inbetween your money cards, or picked up at the start or end of your packet due to inconsistent grab.
So that being the case, i'd rather practice to track the whole 1/2 deck slug and see how much of that half deck i successfully cut to the top. When you just have the high cards marked, even when you get a good packet spread over a small section, it's hard to be sure that that was your packet when you've completed the shuffle and cut due to the fact that there are shaded through out the whole shoe. If only your packet is shaded, there's no doubt about whether you've been successful or not. The shaded cards are either where you said they'd be, or they're not.
You can do this with multiple packets as well by shading a 2nd half deck and pluging them both in various positions. I prefer to shade them different colours, so that you can identify which one was which.
RJT.
So that being the case, i'd rather practice to track the whole 1/2 deck slug and see how much of that half deck i successfully cut to the top. When you just have the high cards marked, even when you get a good packet spread over a small section, it's hard to be sure that that was your packet when you've completed the shuffle and cut due to the fact that there are shaded through out the whole shoe. If only your packet is shaded, there's no doubt about whether you've been successful or not. The shaded cards are either where you said they'd be, or they're not.
You can do this with multiple packets as well by shading a 2nd half deck and pluging them both in various positions. I prefer to shade them different colours, so that you can identify which one was which.
RJT.
When I color a packet of cards I don't just color the high cards even if I'm practicing for a negative track. What I do is take 26 cards that have a total makeup of whatever count I want them to have, say -12, and than color them. That includes the lows, highs, and neutrals that make up -12 in 26 cards. Say its 17 high cards, 5 lows, and 4 neutral, they all get colored the same and get put together in the shoe. Than get shuffled and picked and than cut to see if I was right as to where the track was. This is not the only track that can be done as we due cut out as well as cut in, and try smaller sized packets. But the premise of how we practice it is basically the same. But understand that in each packet we track is a makeup of all the cards, not just highs or lows. In the beginning when you first start trying to track 1 half deck packet, all you need is 26 colored cards and thats really quite easy to separate. Its when you become more advanced and try to track multiple packets that you may want to use different colors and color more cards.
I see what you mean, just random shuffling will not always give you a good enough slug to track, and then you will just be praticing card counting and have nothing worth tracking.
But as supercoolmancool mentioned, it is a bit of a pain to seperate the cards everytime. QFIT mentioned that his software does this for you in an instant, but practicing on a computer screen is just not quite like practicing on a real deck...
But as supercoolmancool mentioned, it is a bit of a pain to seperate the cards everytime. QFIT mentioned that his software does this for you in an instant, but practicing on a computer screen is just not quite like practicing on a real deck...
I'd completely agree. I feel that CV is one of the best - if not the best - training tool on the market, being able to hone in on very specific areas of weakness. I do however feel that due to the level of accuracy needed in eyeballing packets of cards with non-mechanical dealers, that achieving this on screen irregardless of picture quality, is never going to happen.
I do like CV Shuffle and have played with it regularly, but have to say that i don't feel that it does you nearly as much good as getting the shaded cards out and tracking the shuffle visually on the table.
RJT.
I do like CV Shuffle and have played with it regularly, but have to say that i don't feel that it does you nearly as much good as getting the shaded cards out and tracking the shuffle visually on the table.
RJT.
RJT although I respect your point of view. I have seen many shoes as of late that will throw the tracking or ace sequencing off a bit. There are good dealers and there are great dealers.. It is a science in finding a sweet table now. The LVHCM crew has alot of info on where to play the right games.. P.S the guy posting as LVHCM is a fat little bald guy.. You nailed it Bojack..
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