counting doesn't work

The Right Stuff

Having just read through this thing, I might as well toss my thoughts out there although it's nothing that I haven't said before. As noted, card counting makes no guarantees of success. Remember the movie "Good Fellas" where Robert Deniro's character is at the racetrack with his various gangster buddies and the race is on? Upon noticing that the one guy, the bald fat guy that had the remarkable ability to have never won a single bet in his life was cheering for the same horse to win, Deniro makes a face indicating disgust and rips up his tickets and throws them in the air before the race is even over although this horse was in the lead. Of course the horse lost, true to form... but who knows, you might be THAT GUY! Most people fail at card counting for one reason or another.

I state this not to be mean, not to rip on you but to prove a point. Card counting and advantage play in general means you have a better shot than most. It is such a slim margin by which you are operating under that it can go either way, with an overall positive outcome if you can withstand the long haul. Most people are underfinanced, less than proficient and various other factors which inhibit results, they simply cannot withstand that long haul. Something Ken Uston talked about, the "rule of big numbers"... if you have an overwhelming bankroll it doesn't hurt. If you played 10 sessions and took a beating to the point that it affects you emotionally, your bankroll is not big enough or you are overbetting your bankroll. Shiznites noted having a 1200 unit minimum bankroll and he is correct---Heavy emphasis on MINIMUM part of that statement. If you are playing properly and are skillful enough, you could be making roughly 1.5 units an hour, not exactly any sort of "road to riches". I say this because this is my consistent average for many years and I have been doing this a LOOOONGGG time. The swings up and down are incredible though, it's absolutely nerve racking at times. You really have to have enough money that you never sweat any loss whatsoever.

By the same token if you took 10 losing sessions in a row, you might need to look at your proficiency level, your counting method, your spread, your playing conditions and rules and other factors. Playing lower stakes games? Overwhelming odds against "the little guy" as noted by Sagefrog are in place for lower stakes games, making it all but impossible to win even WITH counting, particularly in AC. The percentages are so small and crucial that every little bit of additional house edge and rules that are a disadvantage to the players means a lot and the casinos prey on these people with limited funds that are willing to play impossible to win at odds the way an owl descends on a mouse with it's talons in the night. The mice rarely win.

The game has not gotten easier over the years, it has gotten worse. What was "open game" and "open season" many years ago has tightened up considerably. Even 25 years ago most counters failed miserably, primarily over ineffective bankroll management, limited bankroll or poor strategy, so with H17, 6:5, 8 decks, autoshufflers, hole card readers in this day and age you expect to win effortlessly? It's not going to happen.

I have seen people not be selective enough about what playing conditions they play under. Show me any player at a low stakes table in a Harrah's Casino and I'll show you living proof of that. Casino countermeasures, however unwarranted and costly, amounts to them basically hurting about 1% of their players, causing them to make LESS money but not stopping them from turning a profit and causing them to lose out on a MUCH larger amount of money that they would be pulling down from the other 99%. Crazy and stupid? Yes! This is not a cost-effective practice... but hey, back when they were burning people at the stake for being witches in Salem, Mass. way back when it made all the sense in the world at the time even though we look back on it now and think it sort of crazy and stupid. Most people attempting card counting/advantage play fail, plain and simple. There is no free lunch, no easy pickings, no brass ring. You are fighting with all your might to make a steady 1% on your investment and it can only be measured in years, not 10 playing sessions, not even 10 months. A few mistakes are a few mistakes too many also; It's easy to make mistakes and you can't take any of them back. "Want to be" card counters are picked off like flies with a flyswatter, most fail and contribute to the casinos bottom line much more than the few that are taking anything OUT of the casinos. Those very few that are taking money OUT of the casinos? They do it very consistently so what does that tell us? This is no coincidence.

One more thing... there are people out there that THINK they are advantage players but are clearly not. Please allow me to point out a case in point. I was headed out with a friend to the casino (that knows what I do) that talked of another friend of his that professed to be a card counter and proficient blackjack player. He's a stockbroker so knows a lot of people from all over. He stated, "My card counting friend said you should always bet big on the first hand because you usually always win the first hand." With a puzzled look, I asked "Are you sure he said that? Just like that word per word?" (There is a reason for a larger bet on the first hand and THAT AIN'T IT! See some of the words of wisdom of Stanford Wong for the ACTUAL reason). I had to say, "Listen, your friend is an amateur to have made some ridiculous statement like that... counting or not, he is an advantage player as much as I have a strong resemblance to Mary Poppins."

Mathematical analysis and understanding financial aspects of the game, bankroll management and being well financed, strategy and playing conditions/rules are all integral components equally important to card counting itself and falling short of the mark in ANY of these categories and this is why so many fail. There is more to it than just counting cards. What does this truly mean? It means that the original statement that "card counting does not work" is TRUE, with the basis of this being that proficiency and knowledge in these other crucial factors are required and critical to be successful. Card counting in itself is not enough. Read, train hard and study up because there is no free lunch, no brass ring. Oh... and let's not leave out Ken Uston's "rule of big numbers", so having half a million to a million or so to work with doesn't hurt either...

Okay, I have babbled on and bored the sh*t out of you guys enough for one day...
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
Tarzan said:
Having just read through this thing, I might as well toss my thoughts out there although it's nothing that I haven't said before. As noted, card counting makes no guarantees of success. Remember the movie "Good Fellas" where Robert Deniro's character is at the racetrack with his various gangster buddies and the race is on? Upon noticing that the one guy, the bald fat guy that had the remarkable ability to have never won a single bet in his life was cheering for the same horse to win, Deniro makes a face indicating disgust and rips up his tickets and throws them in the air before the race is even over although this horse was in the lead. Of course the horse lost, true to form... but who knows, you might be THAT GUY! Most people fail at card counting for one reason or another.

I state this not to be mean, not to rip on you but to prove a point. Card counting and advantage play in general means you have a better shot than most. It is such a slim margin by which you are operating under that it can go either way, with an overall positive outcome if you can withstand the long haul. Most people are underfinanced, less than proficient and various other factors which inhibit results, they simply cannot withstand that long haul. Something Ken Uston talked about, the "rule of big numbers"... if you have an overwhelming bankroll it doesn't hurt. If you played 10 sessions and took a beating to the point that it affects you emotionally, your bankroll is not big enough or you are overbetting your bankroll. Shiznites noted having a 1200 unit minimum bankroll and he is correct---Heavy emphasis on MINIMUM part of that statement. If you are playing properly and are skillful enough, you could be making roughly 1.5 units an hour, not exactly any sort of "road to riches". I say this because this is my consistent average for many years and I have been doing this a LOOOONGGG time. The swings up and down are incredible though, it's absolutely nerve racking at times. You really have to have enough money that you never sweat any loss whatsoever.

By the same token if you took 10 losing sessions in a row, you might need to look at your proficiency level, your counting method, your spread, your playing conditions and rules and other factors. Playing lower stakes games? Overwhelming odds against "the little guy" as noted by Sagefrog are in place for lower stakes games, making it all but impossible to win even WITH counting, particularly in AC. The percentages are so small and crucial that every little bit of additional house edge and rules that are a disadvantage to the players means a lot and the casinos prey on these people with limited funds that are willing to play impossible to win at odds the way an owl descends on a mouse with it's talons in the night. The mice rarely win.

The game has not gotten easier over the years, it has gotten worse. What was "open game" and "open season" many years ago has tightened up considerably. Even 25 years ago most counters failed miserably, primarily over ineffective bankroll management, limited bankroll or poor strategy, so with H17, 6:5, 8 decks, autoshufflers, hole card readers in this day and age you expect to win effortlessly? It's not going to happen.

I have seen people not be selective enough about what playing conditions they play under. Show me any player at a low stakes table in a Harrah's Casino and I'll show you living proof of that. Casino countermeasures, however unwarranted and costly, amounts to them basically hurting about 1% of their players, causing them to make LESS money but not stopping them from turning a profit and causing them to lose out on a MUCH larger amount of money that they would be pulling down from the other 99%. Crazy and stupid? Yes! This is not a cost-effective practice... but hey, back when they were burning people at the stake for being witches in Salem, Mass. way back when it made all the sense in the world at the time even though we look back on it now and think it sort of crazy and stupid. Most people attempting card counting/advantage play fail, plain and simple. There is no free lunch, no easy pickings, no brass ring. You are fighting with all your might to make a steady 1% on your investment and it can only be measured in years, not 10 playing sessions, not even 10 months. A few mistakes are a few mistakes too many also; It's easy to make mistakes and you can't take any of them back. "Want to be" card counters are picked off like flies with a flyswatter, most fail and contribute to the casinos bottom line much more than the few that are taking anything OUT of the casinos. Those very few that are taking money OUT of the casinos? They do it very consistently so what does that tell us? This is no coincidence.

One more thing... there are people out there that THINK they are advantage players but are clearly not. Please allow me to point out a case in point. I was headed out with a friend to the casino (that knows what I do) that talked of another friend of his that professed to be a card counter and proficient blackjack player. He's a stockbroker so knows a lot of people from all over. He stated, "My card counting friend said you should always bet big on the first hand because you usually always win the first hand." With a puzzled look, I asked "Are you sure he said that? Just like that word per word?" (There is a reason for a larger bet on the first hand that THAT AIN'T IT! See some of the words of wisdom of Stanford Wong for the ACTUAL reason). I had to say, "Listen, your friend is an amateur to have made some ridiculous statement like that... counting or not, he is an advantage player as much as I have a strong resemblance to Mary Poppins."

Mathematical analysis and understanding financial aspects of the game, bankroll management and being well financed, strategy and playing conditions/rules are all integral components equally important to card counting itself and falling short of the mark in ANY of these categories and this is why so many fail. There is more to it than just counting cards. What does this truly mean? It means that the original statement that "card counting does not work" is TRUE, with the basis of this being that proficiency and knowledge these other crucial factors are required and critical to be successful. Card counting in itself is not enough. Read, train hard and study up because there is no free lunch, no brass ring. Oh... and let's not leave out Ken Uston's "rule of big numbers", so having half a million to a million or so to work with doesn't hurt either...

Okay, I have babbled on and bored the sh*t out of you guys enough for one day...
Actually, I couldn't stop reading because I identified so much with what you are saying. Lately, I had gotten emotionally sick of the inevitable roller coaster of counting. I have been reducing my spread to the point that I have increased my number of losing sessions for the sake of lesser volatility. lol So the ride has been more pleasant, but the net has been on the negative side, despite considerable wonging out. Margins are so delicate in today's games that one cannot afford to tinker with the ideal play without paying for it in short order. Aside from a small amount of masking, there is no profit in counting for anyone who wants to deviate from recommended play. So now convinced once more from experience, when I should have trusted the results of countless simulations, I am back on the wagon. I hope this trip beginning tomorrow in Vegas goes better than the last one in AC. Hopefully I can get in and out fast enough to avoid getting the boot, but I am hellbent on spreading to the nth degree and making a little loot this trip. I've had enough comfort that I'm no longer comfortable, if you get my drift. Counting is not for wuzzes. The one thing I hate about counting is constantly staying on the go. An hour or two here, an hour or two there, is not my idea of fun, but if it's profitable, well, I think I can stand a little discomfort. lol Sorry, Sagefr0g, my days of fuzzy counting are over. Time to go back to work. lol Now if only I can find a worthy game. Are there any left in Vegas?
 

Bojack1

Well-Known Member
The game has not gotten easier over the years, it has gotten worse. What was "open game" and "open season" many years ago has tightened up considerably. Even 25 years ago most counters failed miserably, primarily over ineffective bankroll management, limited bankroll or poor strategy, so with H17, 6:5, 8 decks, autoshufflers, hole card readers in this day and age you expect to win effortlessly? It's not going to happen.
A very fine post Tarzan, and while agree with most of it, this part I disagree with a bit. While some games have changed and have seemingly gotten "worse", I suggest they have gotten different and need different approaches. As you have said most counters fail, that will never change. The problem with most counters failing is the same mindset that never grasps the true meaning of how to play with an advantage and make money, is the same thought process on not adapting to the games at hand.

First off there are still great counting games out there. But if you are not located near them it means travel. If you have the bankroll to play, there should be no excuse to not attempt visiting these games. If not, what do you do? Most will just continually visit their local casino out of convenience, sit there time after time, play atrocious games armed with just basic knowledge of a count system, and claim the games have gotten sooo bad. No sh*t. But you are worse than the ploppy who plays them because you at least have the knowledge to know exactly how bad they are. In essence you are the poor sap that brings a knife to a gun fight. Step up, get a gun, or better yet some heavy artillery.

People in general will take the past of least resistence. That is no different whether it be business, athletics, or advantage play. It is those very few who buck that trend that will excel. If you allow the game that is changing to pass you by, then you to can suffer the"bad" games. I contend the games have changed, the average persons attitude has not. That is where the illusion of the "bad" game comes from. I make as much if not more from playing blackjack as I ever did. If I played exactly as I did in 1996 as I do in 2010, I probably would not be playing, and would join the voice of those that claim the games have gotten so bad they are almost impossible to beat. I am not that ignorant, or lazy. I thank god for my stubborness to not let difficult tasks move me to easier paths. As the marines say, adapt and overcome. There are ways of beating almost any game. Not all, but more than you would think. If you think this game is getting too hard, then my bet is you're too soft. Counting does not work, in the same vain that a car does not work driven by an infant.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
aslan said:
Actually, I couldn't stop reading because I identified so much with what you are saying. Lately, I had gotten emotionally sick of the inevitable roller coaster of counting. I have been reducing my spread to the point that I have increased my number of losing sessions for the sake of lesser volatility. lol So the ride has been more pleasant, but the net has been on the negative side, despite considerable wonging out. Margins are so delicate in today's games that one cannot afford to tinker with the ideal play without paying for it in short order. Aside from a small amount of masking, there is no profit in counting for anyone who wants to deviate from recommended play. So now convinced once more from experience, when I should have trusted the results of countless simulations, I am back on the wagon. I hope this trip beginning tomorrow in Vegas goes better than the last one in AC. Hopefully I can get in and out fast enough to avoid getting the boot, but I am hellbent on spreading to the nth degree and making a little loot this trip. I've had enough comfort that I'm no longer comfortable, if you get my drift. Counting is not for wuzzes. The one thing I hate about counting is constantly staying on the go. An hour or two here, an hour or two there, is not my idea of fun, but if it's profitable, well, I think I can stand a little discomfort. lol Sorry, Sagefr0g, my days of fuzzy counting are over. Time to go back to work. lol Now if only I can find a worthy game. Are there any left in Vegas?
lol, ok aslan, errhh, didn't we discuss that the negative aspect of a negative net could result if one played overly conservatively?
what ever, lol, i just hope your tomorrow trip goes better than the yesterday one, truly.
just don't go over board on the other side of the spectrum and start over betting lol.
good lesson in Kelly betting maybe though, ehh? errh if i got it right full Kelly would be what ROR = 13% or so? pretty high no? but that would be optimal betting, no? and oh yeah, a real roller coaster ride that even as the legend goes a lot of professionals can't stomach.
point being, maybe find the balance that you think you can live with as far as your betting level. then be careful, lol, keep an eye on what really happens and see if what you thought was true measures up to reality.
heh, heh, well, i guess maybe that's what your in the process of doing, no?

what ever i like Tarzan's post. makes me think of ExhibitCAA's cigar article and how counting against blackjack and advantage play is analogous to evolution say maybe a tadpole squiggling in the swamp muck and mire, growing legs and some how managing to flop on shore so as to hop about a bit.
kind of how i'm coming to view card counting blackjack is that it's a advantage technique that is a sub set of a wider field of advantage stuff.
that's a good thing, lol, various weapons in your arsenal sort of thing.
but yeah, Tarzan's point about being underfunded and being properly banked when it comes to blackjack is so very valid.
so i guess i'm more in the camp that views blackjack as a fun sort of sport, that if you bother to do it right, yeah you can make some money. just what ever protect your self at all times, just like the ref tells the boxers.
me heck, as far as blackjack, i just kind of fool around with it, like i'm not gonna lay any kind of bank on it that a pro would.
what ever, as far as that statistics stuff, i don't believe statistics has any more of a memory than the cards do, voodoo as it may be i don't sweat the past as long as my bottom line is where i'm happy with it. so, but if things change i can change, lol.
just like math is a tool, so is counting i guess.
so go out and build something, lol.
 

bigplayer

Well-Known Member
sometimes it feels that way

BillytheBJkid said:
after 2 losing trips to atlantic city this year, plus 9 trips last summer resulting in a net loss, I am convinced card counting is a bunch a crap. Anyone saying they make a living is just full of BS. The only people making any money are the people on here hawking books, classes and software products. You all are in on this too I presume. Shame on you
Having an edge and actually winning in an AC style game without playing up to 1000 hours is a risky proposition. In the short term you've got maybe $50 to $100 in EV in a hot shoe but are wagering $20,000 or $30,000 dollars. A few doubles and splits going the wrong way and your whole trip can go bad very quickly.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
sagefr0g said:
lol, ok aslan, errhh, didn't we discuss that the negative aspect of a negative net could result if one played overly conservatively?
what ever, lol, i just hope your tomorrow trip goes better than the yesterday one, truly.
just don't go over board on the other side of the spectrum and start over betting lol.
good lesson in Kelly betting maybe though, ehh? errh if i got it right full Kelly would be what ROR = 13% or so? pretty high no? but that would be optimal betting, no? and oh yeah, a real roller coaster ride that even as the legend goes a lot of professionals can't stomach.
point being, maybe find the balance that you think you can live with as far as your betting level. then be careful, lol, keep an eye on what really happens and see if what you thought was true measures up to reality.
heh, heh, well, i guess maybe that's what your in the process of doing, no?

what ever i like Tarzan's post. makes me think of ExhibitCAA's cigar article and how counting against blackjack and advantage play is analogous to evolution say maybe a tadpole squiggling in the swamp muck and mire, growing legs and some how managing to flop on shore so as to hop about a bit.
kind of how i'm coming to view card counting blackjack is that it's a advantage technique that is a sub set of a wider field of advantage stuff.
that's a good thing, lol, various weapons in your arsenal sort of thing.
but yeah, Tarzan's point about being underfunded and being properly banked when it comes to blackjack is so very valid.
so i guess i'm more in the camp that views blackjack as a fun sort of sport, that if you bother to do it right, yeah you can make some money. just what ever protect your self at all times, just like the ref tells the boxers.
me heck, as far as blackjack, i just kind of fool around with it, like i'm not gonna lay any kind of bank on it that a pro would.
what ever, as far as that statistics stuff, i don't believe statistics has any more of a memory than the cards do, voodoo as it may be i don't sweat the past as long as my bottom line is where i'm happy with it. so, but if things change i can change, lol.
just like math is a tool, so is counting i guess.
so go out and build something, lol.
When push came to shove, I didn't do what I expected I would do. Instead I evaluated each game I joined and just tried to make the best of it according to the situation at hand. So far it's worked pretty well, with one roller coaster ride in particular where I began with a min bet of $5 and wound up with a min bet of $25 (still chasing my money!) to win more than a $k. But I did have one losing session; some things you just can't help. The variance gods be with thee! The only problem I'm having out here is that I got to playing $1 VP. Yikes! Help! I need to get out in the sun!! lol
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
aslan said:
When push came to shove, I didn't do what I expected I would do. Instead I evaluated each game I joined and just tried to make the best of it according to the situation at hand. So far it's worked pretty well, with one roller coaster ride in particular where I began with a min bet of $5 and wound up with a min bet of $25 (still chasing my money!) to win more than a $k. But I did have one losing session; some things you just can't help. The variance gods be with thee! The only problem I'm having out here is that I got to playing $1 VP. Yikes! Help! I need to get out in the sun!! lol
lmao, i quit worrying about you when this guy on the chat said he got to spend some time at the tables with you and said you really had your act together. so i can just keep worrying about myself now, lol.
but errhh $1 VP, hmm, now that is some more scary stuff.:laugh:
 
sabre said:
I think the vast majority of people aren't cut out for serious advantage play. Few people have the discipline and emotional control necessary to ride out the wave of variance.
I applaud you sabre this is probably the most important factor IMO.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
sagefr0g said:
lmao, i quit worrying about you when this guy on the chat said he got to spend some time at the tables with you and said you really had your act together. so i can just keep worrying about myself now, lol.
but errhh $1 VP, hmm, now that is some more scary stuff.:laugh:
Well, yeah, that is some scary stuff, but it's just the amount. It will all come back if you hang in there, although there's no guarantee, but it generally does. lol Maybe it will take a few thousand more, or so...lol My blackjack seems to be financing my VP perversion. Had another good night of blackjack, but man, did it start off bad. In the first half hour I'm down $500, but then I switched from 6-deck to double deck and just that fast it reversed. Before the night was done I was up $700. So we're planning to drive back to VA tonight, picked up a third driver, pool player from the tournament, so we should make it in record time, the last trip taking 40 hours including several stops for grub, so we were really pushing it, but didn't go over 80 except when I was sleeping, so I was told and which I disagree with strongly. No one should be in that much of a hurry, so I'll sleep with one eye open on the return. lol
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
Katweezel said:
Is that how you've been counting? (Couldn't resist that! Sorry.) :grin:
I count with one eye for sure, especially when playing at the Pleasure Pit in Planet Hollywood. The other eye is otherwise occupied you might say.

Who needs eyes anyway. I can count in my sleep. Maybe that's what the angry pit boss meant when he woke me up at the table one time and said, "Sir, your are talking in your sleep."
 

caramel6

Well-Known Member
Tarzan said:
Having just read through this thing, I might as well toss my thoughts out there although it's nothing that I haven't said before. As noted, card counting makes no guarantees of success. Remember the movie "Good Fellas" where Robert Deniro's character is at the racetrack with his various gangster buddies and the race is on? Upon noticing that the one guy, the bald fat guy that had the remarkable ability to have never won a single bet in his life was cheering for the same horse to win, Deniro makes a face indicating disgust and rips up his tickets and throws them in the air before the race is even over although this horse was in the lead. Of course the horse lost, true to form... but who knows, you might be THAT GUY! Most people fail at card counting for one reason or another.

I state this not to be mean, not to rip on you but to prove a point. Card counting and advantage play in general means you have a better shot than most. It is such a slim margin by which you are operating under that it can go either way, with an overall positive outcome if you can withstand the long haul. Most people are underfinanced, less than proficient and various other factors which inhibit results, they simply cannot withstand that long haul. Something Ken Uston talked about, the "rule of big numbers"... if you have an overwhelming bankroll it doesn't hurt. If you played 10 sessions and took a beating to the point that it affects you emotionally, your bankroll is not big enough or you are overbetting your bankroll. Shiznites noted having a 1200 unit minimum bankroll and he is correct---Heavy emphasis on MINIMUM part of that statement. If you are playing properly and are skillful enough, you could be making roughly 1.5 units an hour, not exactly any sort of "road to riches". I say this because this is my consistent average for many years and I have been doing this a LOOOONGGG time. The swings up and down are incredible though, it's absolutely nerve racking at times. You really have to have enough money that you never sweat any loss whatsoever.

By the same token if you took 10 losing sessions in a row, you might need to look at your proficiency level, your counting method, your spread, your playing conditions and rules and other factors. Playing lower stakes games? Overwhelming odds against "the little guy" as noted by Sagefrog are in place for lower stakes games, making it all but impossible to win even WITH counting, particularly in AC. The percentages are so small and crucial that every little bit of additional house edge and rules that are a disadvantage to the players means a lot and the casinos prey on these people with limited funds that are willing to play impossible to win at odds the way an owl descends on a mouse with it's talons in the night. The mice rarely win.

The game has not gotten easier over the years, it has gotten worse. What was "open game" and "open season" many years ago has tightened up considerably. Even 25 years ago most counters failed miserably, primarily over ineffective bankroll management, limited bankroll or poor strategy, so with H17, 6:5, 8 decks, autoshufflers, hole card readers in this day and age you expect to win effortlessly? It's not going to happen.

I have seen people not be selective enough about what playing conditions they play under. Show me any player at a low stakes table in a Harrah's Casino and I'll show you living proof of that. Casino countermeasures, however unwarranted and costly, amounts to them basically hurting about 1% of their players, causing them to make LESS money but not stopping them from turning a profit and causing them to lose out on a MUCH larger amount of money that they would be pulling down from the other 99%. Crazy and stupid? Yes! This is not a cost-effective practice... but hey, back when they were burning people at the stake for being witches in Salem, Mass. way back when it made all the sense in the world at the time even though we look back on it now and think it sort of crazy and stupid. Most people attempting card counting/advantage play fail, plain and simple. There is no free lunch, no easy pickings, no brass ring. You are fighting with all your might to make a steady 1% on your investment and it can only be measured in years, not 10 playing sessions, not even 10 months. A few mistakes are a few mistakes too many also; It's easy to make mistakes and you can't take any of them back. "Want to be" card counters are picked off like flies with a flyswatter, most fail and contribute to the casinos bottom line much more than the few that are taking anything OUT of the casinos. Those very few that are taking money OUT of the casinos? They do it very consistently so what does that tell us? This is no coincidence.

One more thing... there are people out there that THINK they are advantage players but are clearly not. Please allow me to point out a case in point. I was headed out with a friend to the casino (that knows what I do) that talked of another friend of his that professed to be a card counter and proficient blackjack player. He's a stockbroker so knows a lot of people from all over. He stated, "My card counting friend said you should always bet big on the first hand because you usually always win the first hand." With a puzzled look, I asked "Are you sure he said that? Just like that word per word?" (There is a reason for a larger bet on the first hand and THAT AIN'T IT! See some of the words of wisdom of Stanford Wong for the ACTUAL reason). I had to say, "Listen, your friend is an amateur to have made some ridiculous statement like that... counting or not, he is an advantage player as much as I have a strong resemblance to Mary Poppins."

Mathematical analysis and understanding financial aspects of the game, bankroll management and being well financed, strategy and playing conditions/rules are all integral components equally important to card counting itself and falling short of the mark in ANY of these categories and this is why so many fail. There is more to it than just counting cards. What does this truly mean? It means that the original statement that "card counting does not work" is TRUE, with the basis of this being that proficiency and knowledge in these other crucial factors are required and critical to be successful. Card counting in itself is not enough. Read, train hard and study up because there is no free lunch, no brass ring. Oh... and let's not leave out Ken Uston's "rule of big numbers", so having half a million to a million or so to work with doesn't hurt either...

Okay, I have babbled on and bored the sh*t out of you guys enough for one day...
so what is a reason to bet big on a 1 hand? Because shoe is neutral?
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
caramel6 said:
so what is a reason to bet big on a 1 hand? Because shoe is neutral?
No, but because the PC is probably looking to see how to rate your play. If when you first start out you are betting big on the first hand, he might enter that number into the computer for purposes of calculating your table comps. Of course if he wanders back your way in the course of play, you might want to plop down another big bet, but too much of these shenanigans, and you will possibly wipe out your entire edge. Also, if you have been betting it up in a positive count and now your first bet is back to minimum, what do you think that looks like? But again, too much "masking" activity and you will forfeit your advantage. With today's slim margins, it doesn't take much to start spinning your wheels. Those here who advocate getting in and out fast, and ignoring all cover plays have good reason for their approach. If you "enjoy" playing BJ, and tend to play all, you will pay for indulging yourself; you must then include the entertainment value of playing blackjack in your overall evaluation of your play. It doesn't make you a failure; failing or succeeding all depends on your self-imposed goals. Heck, I know ploppies who, if they only lose $300, feel like they have won. All they wanted was a good time and to limit their losses. My Mom used to say, "Each to his own, said the old lady as she kissed the cow."
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
BillytheBJkid said:
after 2 losing trips to atlantic city this year, plus 9 trips last summer resulting in a net loss, I am convinced card counting is a bunch a crap. Anyone saying they make a living is just full of BS. The only people making any money are the people on here hawking books, classes and software products. You all are in on this too I presume. Shame on you
Have you ever run a simulation? Do you know what that is? If you did then you would know that card counting is a profitable way to play blackjack. What happens in any few cases is irrelevant--it proves nothing. Sorry you were unlucky. You might want to examine your proficiency at card counting, including betting discipline, and you might want to examine your bankroll adequacy in terms of Risk of Ruin, before you launch out blaming everyone else for your losing streak. If everything still adds up to bad luck, well, that's possible, but rest assured, it is not a scam as billions upon billions of simulations testify, and that is a scientific look at card counting and how it pans out in the long run.
 

Sero

Active Member
kewljason said:
I think you will get no arguement from anyone on AC games, shabby. Especially at the low level $10 and almost extint $5 games that if I recall correctly, Billythekid was playing. Most likely H17, 8 deck games played at a full table. Hard to make any money that way. :( If you can play $25 or $50 tables in AC you have a slightly better chance, but after 6 years of playing mostly AC games, this year even I am headed west for browner pastures. :laugh:
Greener or browner? :)
 

blackjacktilt

Well-Known Member
BillytheBJkid said:
after 2 losing trips to atlantic city this year, plus 9 trips last summer resulting in a net loss, I am convinced card counting is a bunch a crap. Anyone saying they make a living is just full of BS. The only people making any money are the people on here hawking books, classes and software products. You all are in on this too I presume. Shame on you
You should switch to poker as I assume you think that is all luck also.
See you at the tables!!
 
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