Craps

[Sonny]

I would highly recommend reading the book "So You Wanna Be A Gambler" (advanced Craps) by John Patrick. This book has a lot of betting strategies and money management along with discipline advice.

You must be joking, right? :laugh: John Patrick is notorious for giving terrible advice! He has several books and DVDs on blackjack and they are all laughable. His name is synonymous with superstitous advice and worthless betting progressions. Why do you think the casinos sponsor his seminars? Why do they have the seminars right in their casinos? Why do you think he never has any proof to back up his crazy claims (like not splitting aces and eights, and not doubling 11).

One of the problems with being consistent is you always have to throw FROM the same spot, TO the same spot, the exact same way, with the same rotation, landing, and final roll or bounce.

The dice don't have to be rolled exactly the same way in order to control them. You simply need to be able to influence them enough to affect the odds. If you can cause one die to land on the number 3 (or any number) less (or more) than 1/6th of the time then you have created an advantage. The typical way to do this is to throw the dice so that they spin along the horizontal axis. This "helicopter" motion acts like a gyroscope and causes them to roll vertically less often. The websites I mentioned before will have more info on this and other legitimate techniques.

-Sonny-

 

[Brutus]

What I need is a dollar or .25 cent minimum and 100x odds game.
anyone know where something like that is?

http://wizardofodds.com/craps

me and my lucky hat

 

[Sonny]

Explain this please.That doesn't jibe with the results I've seen so far.
Player A rollls,player B bets wrong.Player A gets a 6.He either makes it and wins,or craps out and player B wins.

Player A bets the Pass line, Player B bets the Don't Pass. If the shooter rolls a 7 or 11 then Player A wins and Player B loses (net push, just as you described). If the shooter rolls a 2 or 3 then Player A loses and Player B wins (again, a net push). However, if the shooter rolls a 12 they both lose. That is where the house makes its money.

Other types of hedge bets are described here:

http://casinogambling.about.com/od/craps/a/hedge.htm

The odds are typically not in your favor because of the "short" payouts on all the place bets.

-Sonny-

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Player A bets the Pass line, Player B bets the Don't Pass. If the shooter rolls a 7 or 11 then Player A wins and Player B loses (net push, just as you described). If the shooter rolls a 2 or 3 then Player A loses and Player B wins (again, a net push). However, if the shooter rolls a 12 they both lose. That is where the house makes its money...

I believe a 12 is a push for the wrong bettor, not a loss, and a loss for the right bettor. Same principle, it just cuts the house edge in half.

I've thought about putting massive simultaneous bets (with a collaborator) on Pass and Don't Pass for cover and comp purposes. Now in some stores the Field bet pays 3-1 for boxcars instead of 2-1. I wonder if a small Field bet at a 3-1 table (placed by a third collaborator of course) would be a worthwhile hedge to minimize risk and maximize comps.

 

[shadroch]

I believe a 12 is a push for the wrong bettor, not a loss, and a loss for the right bettor. Same principle, it just cuts the house edge in half.

I've thought about putting massive simultaneous bets (with a collaborator) on Pass and Don't Pass for cover and comp purposes. Now in some stores the Field bet pays 3-1 for boxcars instead of 2-1. I wonder if a small Field bet at a 3-1 table (placed by a third collaborator of course) would be a worthwhile hedge to minimize risk and maximize comps.

Thats how it is where I play. Once,we played 3 hours,with an average of $60 on the table and broke exactly even. Another time we had closer to $100 out for a shorter period and ended up $15 behind,but got a $500 steak dinner out of it,and free rooms our next trip..

 

[Sonny]

I believe a 12 is a push for the wrong bettor, not a loss, and a loss for the right bettor.

You're absolutely right. Man, you would think that an ex-dealer would remember that! I guess I'm repressing a lot of memories from those days. Believe it or not, it's actually much better on our side of the table. I'll take a little variance over a pit boss any day!

-Sonny-

 

[rdorange]

Sonny, I stand behind my post!

Sonny, Poor form. I have read many of your posts. I respect your opinion and I am impressed with all the experience and knowledge you bring to this forum. You've probably forgotten more about BJ and gambling than I will ever know. BUT, think about what you read before you type!
NO, I am not joking. And I agree that progressions have no place in gambling, BJ or Craps.
I stand behind my comments, and wish you would reconsider your post.
There is quite a bit of good advice in this book. Get your copy of said book out (if you have one).
First: I never mentioned progression. I never said all of it was good, What I did say was this "I found quite a bit of the information very valuable when applied to BJ and gambling in general. You can make lots of adjustments to the techniques taught and just apply them to your own style of play.
Second: Chapter 85, page 393...Patrick shoots down progression betting, especially the Martingale.
Look in your copy and tell me which chapter and page he recommends a progression that works.
Concerning, his Casino-sponsored seminars, I don't know a thing about them so I cannot say anything to support them or discount them.
Regarding the dice setting and player advantage, I already stated in an earlier post that I DO see patterns and trends in my own throw and do bet according. Like I said I throw more fives and thus bet more on five.

 

[Sonny]

Sonny, Poor form…I stand behind my comments, and wish you would reconsider your post.

I meant no disrespect…to you at least. My opinion of John Patrick, however, will not change. I have read much of his material on blackjack and spent several months on his website and message boards. I am being polite when I say that his advice was not compelling. He denounces progressions systems and then describes his own betting “system” based on the outcome of previous hands in the same breath. He doesn’t seem to understand that his system is a progression system. He also advocates superstitious “stop-loss” limits and arbitrary “leave the table” streak-style rules that have no effect on the player’s advantage. He simply ignores all mathematical proof that his playing strategy (a “modified” BS that actually tripples the house edge) is flawed and that his betting strategy is dangerous. He claims to have “scientific proof” of his system but is at a loss to show any of it. He even resorts to childish insults quite frequently on his message boards.

I have not read any of his advice on craps so maybe there is something that I am missing. I certainly didn’t mean to insult you personally. Hopefully you can understand why my opinion of him is so low. I would be interested to hear what sort of valid information he has to offer.

-Sonny-

 

[rdorange]

BJ is the real game!

I misinterpreted or misunderstood you. My reference was only about craps and the one book. I was not aware that he has other books, web sites and message boards, not to mention the seminars. I'm sure you based most of your comments on Patrick's BJ writings. I am not familiar with any of his BJ methods or strategies. You are correct about his reference to loss limits and walking away. I (obviously) need to do more homework on this topic (Patrick). Seems there is a lot that I am not aware of, like the reputation that precedes him.

I have not read any of his advice on craps so maybe there is something that I am missing.

Probably not!

Let us not forget why we are here, BJ. BJ is my main game. Craps is just an escape (or break) from some of the long BJ sessions when the count goes bad and the deck gets "cold."

Without going into detail and boring you, some of his hedges and regressions (that can only be applied in craps) warrant further investigating. I still enjoy craps and will let you know how the next session goes. I plan to experiment on the $5 tables.

 

[ScottH]

Without going into detail and boring you, some of his hedges and regressions (that can only be applied in craps) warrant further investigating. I still enjoy craps and will let you know how the next session goes. I plan to experiment on the $5 tables.

Betting strategies are no better at the craps table...

 

[Sonny]

Without going into detail and boring you, some of his hedges and regressions (that can only be applied in craps) warrant further investigating.

Yeah, I'm familiar with this one. What JP calls a "regression" system (I think he calls it the "Up and Pull" or some such nonsense) is just a fancy name for a negative progression system. He claims that progression systems don't work but then tries to disguise his system so that people fall for it. I have personally asked him questions about his system but he is unwilling to discuss it in a public forum. I wonder why...:laugh:

-Sonny-

 

[rdorange]

Went to JP website

Sonny, I see what you mean. I went to JP web site. To say the least, I was not impressed. Then I went to his message board....wow, what an insult.
I'll try to do MY home work first, next time. Thanks.
On my next trip I'm still going to toy with some of the craps info I picked up!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...The dice don't have to be rolled exactly the same way in order to control them. You simply need to be able to influence them enough to affect the odds. If you can cause one die to land on the number 3 (or any number) less (or more) than 1/6th of the time then you have created an advantage. The typical way to do this is to throw the dice so that they spin along the horizontal axis. This "helicopter" motion acts like a gyroscope and causes them to roll vertically less often. The websites I mentioned before will have more info on this and other legitimate techniques.

-Sonny-

The technique I've been investigating is turned at 90 degrees- spinning them on a vertical axis- on the 1-6 axis if you are betting wrong and on the 3-4 axis if you are betting right. My reasoning for this is to think of each die as like a top; when you throw a top it doesn't matter how it lands, it always ends up upright and spinning vertically. Perhpas a die will behave the same way. Using a vertical spin also decouples the spin fron the horizontal motion of the dice being thrown across the table. That may be helpful or not, I'm not sure.

 

[sagefr0g]

The technique I've been investigating is turned at 90 degrees- spinning them on a vertical axis- on the 1-6 axis if you are betting wrong and on the 3-4 axis if you are betting right. My reasoning for this is to think of each die as like a top; when you throw a top it doesn't matter how it lands, it always ends up upright and spinning vertically. Perhpas a die will behave the same way. Using a vertical spin also decouples the spin fron the horizontal motion of the dice being thrown across the table. That may be helpful or not, I'm not sure.

heh, heh neat idea.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[shadroch]

Why not use the methods described in Scobees books. They are supposed to work.

 

[rdorange]

Craps on the last trip

Didn't get to use many betting strategies this trip. Every time I played, I cashed in for $100. The shooters were horendous! Me included! I played at the Beau, Isle, Grand, Boomtown, Isle, Isle and IP (in that order). I lost every session except the one at IP. And at the IP session, I didn't even get to roll. When I arrived at the table the center section was covered, and I mean covered, you could not see the felt under the sea of chips. The shooter was trying to hit eleven, and was hitting elevens and twelves just about every other roll. It took about ten to fifteen minutes between each of his rolls to settle all the bets (between the stickman and the dealers) and to handle all the press bets. You know how that can be when the center bets are hitting. Any way I cashed in, he had been shooting a long time already, as I said the table was covered, and the other betters confirmed it. I was afraid to bet on a an already long roll. I figure he would seven out any moment. He rolled a long time....Yawn..... I missed the remainder of a monster roll.
The next two shooters established points and then sevened out.
The third shooter, Is a whole new story in itself...
He rolled for almost an hour and half +/-. I won appx $300 in a few hours.

 

[Timothy]

Craps vs. Trading

Here's an idea.... there is a theory in trading (stocks, futures, whatever...) that you can be wrong more than half the time and still make money on you trades... if you use an (eg) 3:1 risk reward ratio on entry and exit. Bottom line...what if you approached a Craps table with (eg) $200 and played pass line ($5) and two come bets all with double odds ($10) (ie. according to everything I've read, the best way to play percentage wise)....and REFUSED to leave the table until you either lost the $200 or grew the $200 to $800 (ie. 3:1 risk reward ratio). Could you come out ahead? I know...I know...I'm wrong...BUT WHY?

I love this site...so many smart people.

Timothy

 

[Brutus]

Timothy,
you could come out ahead a few times, but over the long run, you lose money.
http://wizardofodds.com/craps

there are books available for advantage craps play.

this one is for sale over at books and software,
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/store/general-gambling.html

 

[rdorange]

Different dice at different casinos!

When my wife and I go casino hopping, one of our past times is to try to get a comped set of dice, from each casino we play craps at. Most of the time it is no problem, and sometimes you just have to go to the gift shop and buy a pair. We have a pretty good collection going. The other day I was using a set of dice to compare some dice control sets and I notice something wrong! All the dice were manufactured with the same patterns EXCEPT for the dice from Harrah's. On all our dice, with the six on top and the three facing you, the three went diagonal from top right down to bottom left. On the Harrah's dice the the three went diagonal from the top left to the bottom right. the two was reversed diagonal also on the Harrah's dice. Here is a question...
A lot of dice pre-sets are based on the three, such as the three-V. Some pre-sets are based on the four, three for a come out roll. If the dice are different, wouldn't this have a drastic affect on controled rolls at Harrah's?

 

[ScottH]

If the dice are different, wouldn't this have a drastic affect on controled rolls at Harrah's?

Yes, if they use different dice then you would need to set them differently as well.