Desperate!

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#61

Compassion is not only not helpful, it is destructive.

Empathy is an entirely different thing.

It is very hard for anyone to feel the depths of despair that can be
created by someone spiraling downward a la pathological gambling.

It is an orgy of self-destruction that gains a powerful juggernaut momentum,
.
 
#62
Flash

FLASH1296 said:

Compassion is not only not helpful, it is destructive.

Empathy is an entirely different thing.

It is very hard for anyone to feel the depths of despair that can be
created by someone spiraling downward a la pathological gambling.

It is an orgy of self-destruction that gains a powerful juggernaut momentum,
.
How true Flash.

Let us all hope Jimmetech can make it through this very dark time and that his wife will stand by him.

CP
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#63
sagefr0g said:
lreally, this is jimmtech's thread. it's based around the horror, the horror, the desperation, the destruction of family fortunes and family and ones self. people want to say that can't happen to a true advantage player. that view point is patently just plain wrong and a perfect example of too much kool aide and not enough sense. see, just me again maybe, even the kool aide lets one know that ruin is a definite possibility for an AP. what it doesn't let one know is the true nature of the experience of ruin, what that feels like, what and how the reality of that is when it unfolds from potential to the real deal. neither the kool aide or nothing else can tell you what the realization of any degree of ruin means in the grand scheme of things. it can't tell you how your going to react when ruin does come, how miserable you will feel, will the loss of your lifetime bankroll really mean what you thought it would mean when you set out to be an AP?

say you started out as an AP with a nice fat juicy lifetime bank roll and some nice low risk of ruin in 2006 or so and on top of that had some nice juicy stock market and ira portfolio just bursting with profits and a fine job. now it's 2009 and you didn't turn out to be quite the AP you thought you would, your bankroll is down to what ever, one third of what it was. where is your stock and ira portfolio likely to be, now in 2009? then you got Bush, Obama and congress pissing away so much money that you just know inflation is on the way making for quite a rosy future. maybe your once 'secure' job is now not so secure.
just the point being, the unknown stuff, uncertainty, you can't escape it and kool aide can't deal with it.
what can deal with it is having half a grain of sense, simple enough, but simply relying on kool aide just isn't gonna cut it.
Somewhere along the line I must have missed the kool aid reference. I thought it had something to do with Jstat's use of the term in his infamous video's. Then I went so far as to look it up in "the urban dictionary", and that definition didn't seem to fit your use either. :confused: But thats ok.

The remainder of your thread was one that made me start thinking, (as painful as that sometimes is). Now in my 6th year of fulltime counting, I have never encounter a real severe extended downturn period. I don't know what I would have done if I had. I like to think that the riskiest period, when I began playing and was playing with a much larger RoR is behind me, but the truth is that even now, while I play with a larger BR and very conservative RoR, It is not zero, which means that conceivably, the worst could happen. And it really wouldn't have to be worse case senario. If I were to lose two thirds of my BR, as in your example, I'm sure I would be in real panic mode. :eek: Thanks for a great reminder of frail this existance really is.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#66
kewljason said:
Somewhere along the line I must have missed the kool aid reference. I thought it had something to do with Jstat's use of the term in his infamous video's. Then I went so far as to look it up in "the urban dictionary", and that definition didn't seem to fit your use either. :confused: But thats ok.

The remainder of your thread was one that made me start thinking, (as painful as that sometimes is). Now in my 6th year of fulltime counting, I have never encounter a real severe extended downturn period. I don't know what I would have done if I had. I like to think that the riskiest period, when I began playing and was playing with a much larger RoR is behind me, but the truth is that even now, while I play with a larger BR and very conservative RoR, It is not zero, which means that conceivably, the worst could happen. And it really wouldn't have to be worse case senario. If I were to lose two thirds of my BR, as in your example, I'm sure I would be in real panic mode. :eek: Thanks for a great reminder of frail this existance really is.
lol, ok kewl won, just i should preface every post i make with the statement, i'm just a bs'er and i don't mean basic strategy, although basic strategy is the one thing i can do almost flawlessly, lmao.

so it sounds like you are well past N0, i mean heck i would hope so after six years grinding away, lol, what ever that really means, but i think that means that you are in a relatively safe zone if you keep doing what you've been doing sort of thing, at least maybe it means your expectation and one standard deviation for you are equivalent?
would that mean that the most standard measure of luck with respect to your play is about the same value as your expectation? maybe what?, you can expect that circa 68% of the time your results will be within plus or minus your expectation of your expectation, lol.:confused::whip:
so maybe it's not so frail for you now, well i hope that's true.

what ever happens outside the casino walls, well we'll probably most of us all be in the same boat as far as that stuff. that leaves you with your AP stuff, winnings, potential, ect. so that doesn't sound bad.

what i think the term 'kool aide' means is the AP stuff that we all virtually know and regurgitate on a regular basis, it's all as true and valid as can be, but the salient point is that we tend to act as if it is bullet proof when perhaps in fact it is not with out it's pitfalls. but even more salient a point is the idea that 'kool aide' is the 'know all', and the 'must be all' mode of attack for AP stuff when the truth of the matter is there are as many different ways to skin a cat as there are different types of AP's. just me, maybe, i think maybe a pro AP is kind of locked in to use a 'kool aide' method of attack, because 'kool aide' is in essence the epitome of our current state of knowledge when it comes to orthodox AP knowledge.
it's optimal or adjusted to be as near optimal as one wants, but it's as right as can be.
the question though is, is kool aide suitable for everyone, is it really absolutely necessary or even appropriate for a given individual when we are all so very different? just me, maybe, i think kool aide is not a one shoe fits all sort of thing, and that very fact is likely the trap jimmtech fell into, his admitted gambling on the side not with standing.

like, ok, jimmtech freely testifies that he gambled nearly half his bank roll away. just me maybe, but i think that makes jimmtech a gambler at heart. heck, i think i'm right about that, cause it takes one to know one, and i'm pretty sure i'm a gambler at heart, that tries to use AP stuff.
just, what i think i know is that, this kool aide mentality isn't suitable for a gambler, or really even some recreational minded AP's, even if kool aide has an element of a gamble in it.

a gambler needs to take even more precautions than an AP takes. a gambler can use AP stuff but, imho, he better be darn careful about using it with a 'kool aide' attitude. that gambling mentality and pro AP mentality are definitely at odds with one another.
same goes for the recreational AP compared to a pro AP, it's really apples and oranges, sort of a thing in many regards. like a pro might play with some of his own money but probably with others money as well, a rec guy is probably playing with his own hard earned loot exclusively.
just me, i think a AP needs to be scared about some stuff, but a gambler needs to be scared about everything, lol.
i think a gambler needs the very precautionary things an AP doesn't need, precautions such as having goals, loss limits and a general attitude that tells one to take a break when it's no longer fun, sort of thing.
watching the bottom line might be relatively meaningless for a Pro Ap, but for a gambler, imho, it's essential.
if an AP shouldn't fund his activities with the rent money, that rule should go doubly so for the gambler.
and anyone can be at odds with their family, but a gambler has really got to watch it when it comes to how his dance with chance affects those that he cares about most and that care about him.

lot's of other concerns as well, when it comes to the gambling thing. like for instance the question of where does your pleasure come from.
hopefully not exclusively from gambling, hopefully it comes from a wide range of the opportunities that life has to offer.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#67
hum. interesting, frog. Thats alot for me to digest in one sitting. :laugh: may have to take a day or two and reread your post at a time when I'm not so um...relaxed (bzzzz) and thinking a bit more clearly :)
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#68
on resisiting temptation

i guess this is an interesting article
(Dead link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090804/sc_livescience/temptationhardertoresistthanyouthinkstudysuggests/print)

Temptation Harder to Resist Than You Think, Study Suggests
Jeanna Bryner
Senior Writer
LiveScience.com jeanna Bryner
senior Writer
livescience.com Tue Aug 4, 8:52 am ET

If you think you're generally good at resisting temptation, you're probably wrong, scientists now say.

"People are not good at anticipating the power of their urges, and those who are the most confident about their self-control are the most likely to give into temptation," said Loran Nordgren, senior lecturer of management and organizations at the Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University, in Illinois.

The result: Many of us unwittingly expose ourselves to tempting chocolate or cigarettes, leading to a greater likelihood of indulging in addictive behaviors.

Nordgren reached the conclusion through a series of small, offbeat experiments done primarily with college students. The results may hold for the broader population, but that has not been studied.

In one experiment, more than twice as many smokers who thought they could resist temptation lit up a cigarette in a no-smoking test as those who realized they didn't have so much control.

Those who puff out their chests in the face of temptation have a deflated view of others. "They also demonize others," Nordgren told LiveScience. "They take a very dim view of other people who act impulsively, because they have this belief that they themselves wouldn't act this way."

The bottom line, Nordgren says: Avoid situations where such weaknesses thrive, and remember you're not that invincible.

Hunger, cigarettes and sleep

The new study, which will be published in an upcoming issue of the journal Psychological Science, builds on past research showing that when not in the "heat of the moment," individuals have a hard time understanding the depths of their cravings.

"If you aren't feeling a cigarette craving or hunger or sexual arousal at this moment, I believe you have a real difficult time appreciating the transformative force of those experiences," Nordgren said.

And most of the time, we aren't gripped by impulse, he added.

To figure out how this so-called cold state (opposite of the "gripped by impulse" state) influences behavior, Nordgren ran experiments on:

Hunger pangs: Seventy-nine university students and employees rated a list of snacks from least to most favorite and then selected one. Participants were told, "You can eat the snack anytime you like. However, if you return the snack to this location in one week, we will give you four Euros (and you will get to keep the snack you chose)."

Questions also measured participants' level of hunger. Satiated participants exposed themselves to more temptation, generally choosing their first or second favorite snack, while the hungry individuals selected their second or third favorite item. Those with full bellies were also less likely to bring back an uneaten snack, Nordgren said.

Cigarette cravings: Fifty-three university students who smoked were placed into a high- or low-control group, in which a bogus test suggested each had either a high or low capacity for impulse control. Then, the participants had to watch a film called "Coffee and Cigarettes" without smoking. Participants chose their level of temptation with corresponding levels of payoff. They could either keep the unlit cigarette in another room (lowest), on their desk, in their hand, or in their mouth (highest).

On average, low-control students chose to watch the film with the cigarette on the table, and those who thought they could easily resist temptation chose to keep the cigarette in their hand. About 33 percent of the high-control students caved and smoked during the film, while just over 11 percent of the low-control participants lit up.

Mental fatigue: An experiment of 74 college students revealed those who were drained mentally reported having less control of mental fatigue than their bright-eyed counterparts. The "sleepy" students also said they intended to leave about 53 percent of their studying to the last minute, compared with about 60 percent for the non-fatigued group.

The thinking is that the alert students couldn't appreciate the enormous drawbacks of having a drained brain and so chose to leave more studying to the last minute.

Wider implications

The study has implications for all corners of our personal lives, Nordgren figures. For instance, can a recovering alcoholic attend booze-saturated parties and stay sober? Can a dieter frequent his favorite dessert buffets and refrain from binging? Can a committed husband have drinks with a past fling without fear of infidelity?

"The answer is probably 'no,'" Nordgren said. "People have less self-restraint than they think, a false belief that often leads people to expose themselves to more temptation than they can handle."

In addition, he added, the study results suggest people often can't predict how they will react in a given situation.

"It's not just about eating and addiction, but the 'cold self' has a really hard time understanding what you're capable of in a moment of despair, in a moment of rage," Nordgren said.
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#69
Expert help

FLASH1296 said:
Pathological Gambling is a very hard to overcome.

I ought to know.

I was one for decades.

I am also a retired psychologist.

I overcame it.

I am a professional player.

It can be done.

As one can see from the above, I am uniquely
qualified to advise anyone on this issue.

Discussing this in a public forum will not be wise,
but I will respond to a p.m. or email.

All communications will be strictly confidential.
In your typical altruistic style; you continue to help. "Decades of pathological gambling..." You overcame it... Care to briefly share how you managed that? Perhaps you finally quit consulting with yourself and consulted another professional? :grin: Were you the exception that proves the rule?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#70

A talented therapist is very hard to find, and when special requisite understanding (e.g. knowledge of casinos) is almost impossible to find ...

The pure unadulterated truth is that I finally understood what it was that lied underneath all of the gambling - that had energized it.

Let it suffice to say that issues of self-worth, identity, inner-strength, etc. were at the nucleus.

It was a very painful inner journey, and I had to muster a willingness to accept a lot of internal suffering from the soul-searching.

I am sure that without 20 mg. of Lexipro™ accompanying my morning coffee I would still be a degenerate "gambler";
and just like all the 'degennies' I'd be covertly depressed and desperately trying to avoid facing my inner demons by
staying "in action" at the (absurdly) highest betting levels that I could manage.

Ever bet $30,000 a hand on baccarat ?
I have ... but I am now ashamed of that sort of thing.
At the time, I was anything but ashamed. I was strutting.
 
#71
FLASH1296 said:

A talented therapist is very hard to find, and when special requisite understanding (e.g. knowledge of casinos) is almost impossible to find ...

The pure unadulterated truth is that I finally understood what it was that lied underneath all of the gambling - that had energized it.

Let it suffice to say that issues of self-worth, identity, inner-strength, etc. were at the nucleus.

It was a very painful inner journey, and I had to muster a willingness to accept a lot of internal suffering from the soul-searching.

I am sure that without 20 mg. of Lexipro™ accompanying my morning coffee I would still be a degenerate "gambler";
and just like all the 'degennies' I'd be covertly depressed and desperately trying to avoid facing my inner demons by
staying "in action" at the (absurdly) highest betting levels that I could manage.

Ever bet $30,000 a hand on baccarat ?
I have ... but I am now ashamed of that sort of thing.
At the time, I was anything but ashamed. I was strutting.

Did you have fun when you were a degenerate gambler?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#73
I was asked: "Did you have fun when you were a degenerate gambler?"

NO, I was chronically tense and at times even suicidally depressed.
While being a junior-whale, I had truly awesome comps', etc.

As far as the "same itch" goes -- perhaps that is so.

I certainly take pride in my mastery, and I find pleasure in teaching others.
 
#74
Casino

FLASH1296 said:
I was asked: "Did you have fun when you were a degenerate gambler?"

NO, I was chronically tense and at times even suicidally depressed.
While being a junior-whale, I had truly awesome comps', etc.

As far as the "same itch" goes -- perhaps that is so.

I certainly take pride in my mastery, and I find pleasure in teaching others.
The casinos are slippery, dangerous, tricky and many flat out evil. They know how to manipulate to get your money and make you behave as they wish. Many wish to destroy you.:yikes:

Be Wise and Cunning as is the Panther, choose YOUR ground to strike the prey...the Panther controls, NOT the prey. The Panther is too wise for the Psychological tricks of the prey.

CP
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#75
creeping panther said:
The casinos are slippery, dangerous, tricky and many flat out evil. They know how to manipulate to get your money and make you behave as they wish. Many wish to destroy you.:yikes:

Be Wise and Cunning as is the Panther, choose YOUR ground to strike the prey...the Panther controls, NOT the prey. The Panther is too wise for the Psychological tricks of the prey.

CP
not unlike this stuff, i should imagine. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94-sLkZKOYg&feature=featured
 
#76
FLASH1296 said:

Ever bet $30,000 a hand on baccarat ?
I have ... but I am now ashamed of that sort of thing.
At the time, I was anything but ashamed. I was strutting.
I forgot to ask you did you win the hand?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#77

There were numerous bets at the 10, 20 and 30 K level.

It was late in the 20th century, a time I'd as soon forget.

In the end, I lost some money, naturally.
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#78
The good doc

FLASH1296 said:

A talented therapist is very hard to find, and when special requisite understanding (e.g. knowledge of casinos) is almost impossible to find ...

The pure unadulterated truth is that I finally understood what it was that lied underneath all of the gambling - that had energized it.

Let it suffice to say that issues of self-worth, identity, inner-strength, etc. were at the nucleus.

It was a very painful inner journey, and I had to muster a willingness to accept a lot of internal suffering from the soul-searching.

I am sure that without 20 mg. of Lexipro™ accompanying my morning coffee I would still be a degenerate "gambler";
and just like all the 'degennies' I'd be covertly depressed and desperately trying to avoid facing my inner demons by
staying "in action" at the (absurdly) highest betting levels that I could manage.

Ever bet $30,000 a hand on baccarat ?
I have ... but I am now ashamed of that sort of thing.
At the time, I was anything but ashamed. I was strutting.
So it would appear that your successful very painful inner journey is only held together by - and is dependent on - a morning slug of a pharmaceutical concoction called Lexipro?... I'm sure you were in a self-deprecating mood when you wrote that, as the fact that you are still alive, splitting and doubling instead of in the big casino in the sky surely means you found inner strength and resolve somehow. Thank you for sharing a few of your intimate life journey details. One individual's experiences may be of assistance to others, who knows?

...issues of self-worth, identity, inner-strength, etc... Just leaving out your etc for the moment, those other three are likely the headings for many of the problems of the addictive type that us humans need to deal with, right doc? I trust nobody here is going to get the idea that a degenerative gambling habit can be reformed easily and quickly by a daily dose of Doctor Lexipro. :grin:
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#79
"I trust nobody here is going to get the idea that a degenerative gambling habit can be reformed easily and quickly by a daily dose of Doctor Lexipro"


Point well taken. Here is how I see it -- Caveat:

If a degenerate gambler takes anti-depressants, without insight,
his behavior may worsen, as the meds may help insulate him from the
underlying depressive state that fuels his self-destructive behavior.

On the contrary, with insight, the meds will reduce the
inner pressure driving the self-destruction. This assists in backing
away from extreme forms of "gambling" and developing insight.

I believe that the crucial "bottom-line" is that the addict needs to have
the courage to face his inner demons and the courage to change himself.
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#80
The Game Killer

Hey jimmtech, I hope you caught Dye Paintball12s very recent great post titled: The Game Killer. It's very well written by Michael Kaplan and is about James Grosjean - author of the 2003 book: Beyond Counting. I've highlighted some of Grosjean's statements:
..."But like a lot of carnival games, this one can be exploited."...

..."I realized there is nothing special about blackjack."...

..."Blackjack is a game where cards are supposed to be completely hidden by the casino dealers but, by their error, may not be. Many games fit that description."...

..."The new data gave him a 6 to 9 percent advantage and provided a real-world strategy.... During 60 days of hole-carding over 3 months, he made more than $35,000."...

..."These days, however, he regularly plays games where he attains upsides of 30 to 60 percent"...

..."You may have a 1.5% edge, but that's not enough. So many bad things can happen with that small of an advantage.
"...

I believe many can benefit from Grosjean's insight, experience and knowledge of math and games.
There is much also between the lines... For some would-be APs, Grosjean may represent the AHA! button concerning a major topic of great importance: serious exploitation of various casino games' possibilities.
 
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