dice control

[ChefJJ]

Why place the 6&8 when you could make come bets with odds? A $5 bet with $55 odds puts $60 in action and returns $71. A $60 place bet returns $70. On top of that the come bet had an advantage on the first roll. Even if your DC skills are so spectacular the unlikelyhood of a 7 makes the come bet a bad bet you could still bet come and don't come so you're only getting wounded on a 12 and then you're getting your points at full odds.
As for making money off the hardways long term, I think the edge is just too much providing the dice have to hit the end wall. I can't imagine a respected authority like Stanford Wong would recommend hardway bets but I have not read his book.

You can do either, both, or none really. Taking your example with the come vs. place bets, you have to put it in the context of what strengths your set is for. The reason why I usually lean towards the place bets is that you can take them down, move them, etc. when you want. Plus, you can get 2 hits out of a place bet in the same time it takes to establish a come bet and then get it hit. The main advantage of the come bet, to me, is that the 7 is a winner for it before it travels...but that also means your roll is up. Once the come bet comes down, you have to re-establish another to keep going unless you are continually throwing money on the come.

Example:
A $60 Place 6 or 8 bet pays $70. A $10 Come bet with $50 (5x) odds on the 6 pays $70 as well. If you were so fortunate that the 6 came back-to-back, you'd be a winner in either circumstance...except you would have collected twice on the Place bet rather than the Come bet. The power of the Come bet really is with the 7 being a natural winner.

Not arguing with you at all, but stating another side of the coin. There's definitely more than one way to win at that game, and the place v. come bet debate has been around a long time...and it's not going anywhere any time soon. :devil:

In a truly random craps game, the tradeoffs between come and place pretty much come down to personal philosophy. One thing to remember about DC and the 7: you can't make it disappear. In fact, the most you can change its outcome is to reduce it to 12.5% probability (2/16) or increase it to 25% probability (4/16), rather than the random 16.7% (6/36).

The thing about hardways is that they are not profitable unless you can dial them in with a couple different sets...then they can have a big advantage. It's all about math and ability to manipulate the dice. If you can't change the randomness of the dice, then the hardways are pretty much a throwaway bet or a way to toke the crew. I agree with you in that respect.

I've never read Wong either...in fact, I've never really read much about craps except some things about DC on the internet years back. It's all math and a bit of personal philosophy, and I can hack that. :joker: Craps is a great game, and a ton of ways to play it.

good luck

 

[LeonShuffle]

How about this: Again, I don't really believe in dice control but I see how it might be possible if you didn't have to hit the back wall. Therefore, how about betting the Don't Pass, setting the dice against 7s (however that's supposed to be done), and very lightly tossing them without hitting the back wall, in the hopes of establishing a point and "getting past" the come out roll. The boxman will probably let you know that you have to hit the back wall next time but they won't make you roll again (unless it's very blatant). Then, just toss the dice normally, without "trying" to roll anything because now, the odds are in your favor anyway. Of course, this couldn't be done over and over.

 

[ChefJJ]

How about this: Again, I don't really believe in dice control but I see how it might be possible if you didn't have to hit the back wall. Therefore, how about betting the Don't Pass, setting the dice against 7s (however that's supposed to be done), and very lightly tossing them without hitting the back wall, in the hopes of establishing a point and "getting past" the come out roll. The boxman will probably let you know that you have to hit the back wall next time but they won't make you roll again (unless it's very blatant). Then, just toss the dice normally, without "trying" to roll anything because now, the odds are in your favor anyway. Of course, this couldn't be done over and over.

Sounds like a Don't player's dream! As a shooter, I don't care for that because when that happens--pass the dice.

good luck

 

[rdorange]

Pass and Don't Pass

I play both. Pass Line w/place bets, and Don't Pass w/ Don't come bets. The Don't pass I bet on other players and as you all note, hope for a short roll and fast win. I ALWAYS bet the Pass line and place bets on my own roll. I want to roll a long time and collect as many place bet hits as possible. Since I know my own tendencies, and what numbers I hit the most, I limit my bets, or maximize my place bets to my most frequent numbers. Other players find this strange when you are at the table, and say stuff like why do you bet don't on me and other shooters, and only with on youself? I'm just not as knowledgeable or familiar with their rolls as I am with mine.

 

[ChefJJ]

Other players find this strange when you are at the table, and say stuff like why do you bet don't on me and other shooters, and only with on youself? I'm just not as knowledgeable or familiar with their rolls as I am with mine.

I heard a guy tell someone who asked him that same question to "give me a reason to bet on him."

I don't play much on the Don'ts...only when the table is really cold, but I thought that answer was a classic. I have to agree--the Don't player only "hurts" the superstitious people. Funny thing is, I've played next to a darkside player a time or two and saw us both finish with a nice profit. That's how funny the game is.

good luck

 

[LeonShuffle]

I gave this only one shot yesterday since I had just taken a beating at the BJ tables. I bet $25 on the "don't", set the hardways and very weakly tossed them. I was glad to see them land on 10 and the box said nothing. So now I pick them and just hurl 'em down against the back wall. I'll give you one guess as to what they landed on

Perhaps on a good BJ day, I'll try this out a little more.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

I heard a guy tell someone who asked him that same question to "give me a reason to bet on him."

I don't play much on the Don'ts...only when the table is really cold, but I thought that answer was a classic. I have to agree--the Don't player only "hurts" the superstitious people. Funny thing is, I've played next to a darkside player a time or two and saw us both finish with a nice profit. That's how funny the game is.

good luck

wouldnt that make you superstitious yourself if you believe in hot/cold? do you actually make money at craps? i know your the biggest craps player on this site, so im just wondering why you play craps when blackjack is more profitable, and thats assuming that you actually have dice control

 

[ChefJJ]

wouldnt that make you superstitious yourself if you believe in hot/cold? do you actually make money at craps? i know your the biggest craps player on this site, so im just wondering why you play craps when blackjack is more profitable, and thats assuming that you actually have dice control

If nobody's making any points, sometimes it just seems silly to keep betting with the shooter. I wouldn't say I'm superstitious, just observant...but it is rare that I jump to the Don'ts anyways.

I wouldn't say I'm the biggest craps player on this site, I've just been playing for a while.

good luck

 

[rdorange]

No point and a long rolllllll

If nobody's making any points, sometimes it just seems silly to keep betting with the shooter.

JJ, That is one of the points I have been trying to make all along. You DON'T have to make the point to win. After a point is established, if you can prolong the seven from coming out, and you know your numbers, just keep rolling and betting your numbers. This trip last week I had a great example of this. I rolled several 7, 11, and craps during my come out, then set the point at 8. I rolled for at least 45 min. I started my place bets for this roll on 4,6 and 9. I never made the point (wow, and it was 8). But I had pressed my 4 up to three units and pulled down several same bets on it. Picked up the 10 and pressed up one unit with several same bets. The 6 was pressed from $5 up to $30 and had taken at least 2 same bets down at the $30 level. The nine was the same, pressed up 4 units and had several same bet take downs. The fact is I win more on place bets, than pass line and pass line odds. A don't bettor on that roll would have done good on the don't pass because I never made my point. But would not have done well on the don't come, as I kept hitting all the numbers over and over!

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

JJ, That is one of the points I have been trying to make all along. You DON'T have to make the point to win. After a point is established, if you can prolong the seven from coming out, and you know your numbers, just keep rolling and betting your numbers. This trip last week I had a great example of this. I rolled several 7, 11, and craps during my come out, then set the point at 8. I rolled for at least 45 min. I started my place bets for this roll on 4,6 and 9. I never made the point (wow, and it was 8). But I had pressed my 4 up to three units and pulled down several same bets on it. Picked up the 10 and pressed up one unit with several same bets. The 6 was pressed from $5 up to $30 and had taken at least 2 same bets down at the $30 level. The nine was the same, pressed up 4 units and had several same bet take downs. The fact is I win more on place bets, than pass line and pass line odds. A don't bettor on that roll would have done good on the don't pass because I never made my point. But would not have done well on the don't come, as I kept hitting all the numbers over and over!

i dont understand craps, but it sounds like your playing at a 1+% disadvantage doing all this, which is why i dont understand craps, as you could just be playing blackjack, even a shitty game like h17 8 decks and still do better than at craps

 

[ChefJJ]

i dont understand craps, but it sounds like your playing at a 1+% disadvantage doing all this, which is why i dont understand craps, as you could just be playing blackjack, even a shitty game like h17 8 decks and still do better than at craps

OK

 

[rdorange]

No disadvantage!

Bob, I'm retired and have all the time in the world to practice my Bj counting and craps Dc. Both are money makers for me. Small, but enough. One trip Bj is more profitable and the next trip craps may be more profitable. But either way, as long as my trips and food are free, :grin: I can stay on the road for a week at a time and it is normally cheaper than it is to stay at home. Two trips ago I had only one small Bj win with a fellow counter from this site. But I had great craps sessions. This last trip my craps sessions were about even, but I had great Bj wins. :cool2: I have trouble sitting or standing for more than a few hours at a time. So I can rotate a sitting game for standing game when I need a break. If I am at a Bj table and the cards get cold, a fast dealer steps in or think I'm winning too much (if there is such a thing), it is easy for me to say I hear the craps table calling, or vice versa, if I'm at the craps table. Even if I lost a little bit, or broke even, the comps still make it an advantage set of games!

 

[aslan]

Bob, I'm retired and have all the time in the world to practice my Bj counting and craps Dc. Both are money makers for me. Small, but enough. One trip Bj is more profitable and the next trip craps may be more profitable. But either way, as long as my trips and food are free, :grin: I can stay on the road for a week at a time and it is normally cheaper than it is to stay at home. Two trips ago I had only one small Bj win with a fellow counter from this site. But I had great craps sessions. This last trip my craps sessions were about even, but I had great Bj wins. :cool2: I have trouble sitting or standing for more than a few hours at a time. So I can rotate a sitting game for standing game when I need a break. If I am at a Bj table and the cards get cold, a fast dealer steps in or think I'm winning too much (if there is such a thing), it is easy for me to say I hear the craps table calling, or vice versa, if I'm at the craps table. Even if I lost a little bit, or broke even, the comps still make it an advantage set of games!

Well spoken. You have described precisely why I, also retired like you, am currently practicing DC. It's good to have more than one oar in the water. :dog: Az

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Bob, I'm retired and have all the time in the world to practice my Bj counting and craps Dc. Both are money makers for me. Small, but enough. One trip Bj is more profitable and the next trip craps may be more profitable. But either way, as long as my trips and food are free, :grin: I can stay on the road for a week at a time and it is normally cheaper than it is to stay at home. Two trips ago I had only one small Bj win with a fellow counter from this site. But I had great craps sessions. This last trip my craps sessions were about even, but I had great Bj wins. :cool2: I have trouble sitting or standing for more than a few hours at a time. So I can rotate a sitting game for standing game when I need a break. If I am at a Bj table and the cards get cold, a fast dealer steps in or think I'm winning too much (if there is such a thing), it is easy for me to say I hear the craps table calling, or vice versa, if I'm at the craps table. Even if I lost a little bit, or broke even, the comps still make it an advantage set of games!

it sounds like your talking about the short run, luck, etc, and are including comps.. im talking about the long run, with no comps.. without dice control or comps you cant be an AP at craps, and by that i mean play with an advantage.. just because you win doesnt mean your playing with an advantage, obviously.. im just trying to understand why people play craps, and if its the same reason i play video poker, which is for fun, then thats fine, but the way some people talk its as if they play craps for AP or something

 

[aslan]

it sounds like your talking about the short run, luck, etc, and are including comps.. im talking about the long run, with no comps.. without dice control or comps you cant be an AP at craps, and by that i mean play with an advantage.. just because you win doesnt mean your playing with an advantage, obviously.. im just trying to understand why people play craps, and if its the same reason i play video poker, which is for fun, then thats fine, but the way some people talk its as if they play craps for AP or something

You either believe in DC or you don't. Stanford Wong believes in it, and he is well respected. Is he self-deluded? I can't answer that. He has recorded his throws and they indicate an advantage. Vanriance? Maybe. You either believe or you don't. Try it. You might like it.

 

[Guynoire]

You either believe in DC or you don't. Stanford Wong believes in it, and he is well respected. Is he self-deluded? I can't answer that. He has recorded his throws and they indicate an advantage. Vanriance? Maybe. You either believe or you don't. Try it. You might like it.

Actually, I think you guys on this forum are a lot more credible than Stanford Wong. Dice control would be very easy to verify mathematically, just run a chi squared test, but the real question is if his recorded throws are real or are they simply made up. The fact that Stanford Wong has something to gain, he's written a book, greatly reduces his credibility. You guys with, I assume, no monetary gain in promoting a false system are more believable.

 

[glovesetc]

this is an

outstanding reply !!!! Nice thoughts !!!!! :grin: :cool2:

 

[rdorange]

it sounds like your talking about the short run

Nope, the long run!

and are including comps

Comps are just icing on the cake.

im talking about the long run, with no comps.. without dice control or comps you cant be an AP at craps, and by that i mean play with an advantage

Oh well, I'm here to stay with both games, In the long run! With or without comps (but I know I'll gettem). And I don't know if you are correct or not
about the Dc, Ap, and comps at craps....but I'm doin' it anyway! :whip: Same goes for Bj. I will always play to win! :cool2:

just because you win doesnt mean your playing with an advantage,

Agreed. I feel like I play Bj and craps at a small advantage, so sometimes I lose. Not a big deal. Although who LIKES to lose (at all)? My advantage may be small, but as long as it wins in the long run, so what! It isn't my living or anything like that.

im just trying to understand why people play craps, and if its the same reason i play video poker, which is for fun, then thats fine, but the way some people talk its as if they play craps for AP or something

It's fun. Not as much when you lose, But a ton if you win! Same as Video Poke her is to you, when you win its more fun! Huh?

Having said all that, It gives me this great opportunity to spend time on this bb with other people who share my thoughts and interests in winning and not leaving their hard earned money behind in some smoke filled crappy casino!!!

Bj or craps!

 

[ChefJJ]

and by that i mean play with an advantage

Flat betting a shoe game gives you an advantage?

 

[ChefJJ]

Actually, I think you guys on this forum are a lot more credible than Stanford Wong. Dice control would be very easy to verify mathematically, just run a chi squared test, but the real question is if his recorded throws are real or are they simply made up. The fact that Stanford Wong has something to gain, he's written a book, greatly reduces his credibility. You guys with, I assume, no monetary gain in promoting a false system are more believable.

I agree Guy. There's really no way to "prove" the merits of DC. There's a theory with mathematics that show if a player can keep the dice on a pre-set axis for a regular amount of time, he can gain an advantage. If you can do it, then you can do it...and make some money. In my eyes, there's really no reason to justify it OR make your money explaining it.

It's a "put your money where your mouth is" thing.