Rjt
RJT said:
Flash - i don't post here very often these days and you've turned up since i stopped, but i have read a good number of your posts and this one i have to comment on.
Firstly,
why are you using the word "ALL" in capitals if you don't intend to at least imply that some of the advantages that Grosjean et al gain is through the fairly clear cut illegal method of spooking? Your implication with this post is clear for all to see so at least have the decensey to take ownership of the statements you make.
Posting a review of a book is one thing - and i know that ECAA is being discussed frequently at the moment - but we all get it, you think this book is overpriced and of little use. That's great, but the way you're going on about this is beginning to sound a little fanatical.
I agree that this book is of little use to the vast majority here. Gambling is an activity that has heavy investments of ego. Players - especially males - seem to think that they are proving themselves by winning and that losing is a loss of face. AP's by extension are worse. They already have themselves on a pedestal above the average player, as they've "mastered" a winning technique and this inflated ego in an already ego driven activity means that they have further to fall in admitting any weakness. Many exaggerate there success, skills or simply their experiences in the casino. Many live on the dream of what they could do - rather than the reality of what they will actually manage. For most people buying this book is simply a vicarious look into the life of someone who's actually doing something that they wish they were. And that's no sin. It provides a daydream away from the hum-drum of life. Escapism of you will. For a very small few here it will be more than that.
And the same is true about message boards discussing AP. For most of the people here, AP is a hobby. Something to make them feel a little special and it may even make them a little money, or at least remove the guilt that comes with the essentially enjoyable pass time of gambling. Very few people that are making really money from beating casinos post online regularly, simply due to the fact that those who are making the money are actually out making the money rather than reading and posting online. Certainly that's been my experience and my withdrawal for the online community coincided with starting to make a decent sum from AP.
As to ethics - there's little to discuss. We - none of us - operate in a particularly ethical business. The gambling industry has always been greedy and manipulative and has its roots in organised crime, even before Vegas became an entity.
Gambling is not an ethical or socially responsible practice. It risks money that could be constructively put to use elsewhere, but that's the nature of western society - we have so much that we have excess to sink into frivolous activities.
AP of any kind creates no viable products and provides no viable services so can't be construed in any way as a socially driven practice or morally righteous activity and it exists as a facet or consequence of an industry that is not ethical or socially responsible. That's not to say it is unethical to win at a competitive game - but making money solely by beating a weakness in a game can't be considered ethical either. You are not supporting or advancing the human race with this activity.
Off of ethics and back to the blood and guts of the issue
HC'ing is not done with reflective devices of any kind and the fact that you imply that HC'ers operate that way shows your ignorance of the topic. It involves finding a position whilst playing at a table, wherein a dealer's sloppy practice or a casino's sloppy procedure exposes information. That's there issue, not yours. Anyone who uses any kind of device to get that information has moved from being a HC to being a cheat and your continued implication that spooking and shining have anything to do with HC'ing is simply erroneous.
QFIT - i have to disagree with you regarding the information being available to everyone. To use a crass example, for bird spotters certain species are very rare and unusual and even if you are in the right location if you don't know what you are looking for, you may never see them. That doesn't mean that they are not there. Anyone who knows where to look will see them. The information is available to anyone who is prepared to think and take their time.
You presented an extreme example with someone hanging off their chair to see the card - in any real situation you wouldn't get away with that for long. I'm not going to claim that i'm an expert HC'er but i have played and will offer a counter example of the opposite extreme - last time i had a dealer exposing a hole card so blatantly that the entire table could see it - confirmed by 2 team mates sitting at the same table - but the other players didn't seem to pay any attention, so they were oblivious to their advantage. Just because they didn't know - or think - to look doesn't mean the information wasn't there for them. Even if the advantage is seat specific anyone who sits in that seat - AP or not - has the information available to them. HC'er simply train themselves to look for that advantage in the same way that counters train themselves to keep a ratio of high to low cards to identify their advantage.
RJT
I am all for HC play and I will do it in any fashion I can. As for "G" I say good for him, he is for sure thinking outside the box and I could give a hoot who his friends are. One of the most hated AP's in the BJ world I have found to be a great guy, away from public boards.
That being said I find your theorizing on the Psychology of posters or part time AP players most interesting.
Some of us find great fullfillment having a regular job, contributing to the community, running a business, filling peoples needs etc.,, and while doing that building up retirment accounts, SS, healthcare etc.
Some in order to *escape* from these sometimes overwhelming responsibilities
channel their drive, intellect and personalities into playing skilled BJ or VP on a part time, recreational scale. These type of personalities are winners in life and will not settle to become losers in their part-time profession. They simply have the best of both worlds...by design.
To infer that most of these type of players, that I refer to above, are less skilled or dedicated than a fulltimer, Pro, is erroneous to the extreme.
I have of course seen these type of debates come up in the past, many times and I have had my say, many times. Your post has just gone further in the negative and in it's depth and precision than any others I have seen.
RJT, I do enjoy your posts and make sure to real them all, even if you do post rarely.
My Best,
CP
