Real Pros?

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#21
So you want to be a pro?

JoeV said:
Actually by definition a professional is someone who gets paid to do something. Thats why there is a difference between amateur and pro athletes. So technically if you make any money playing blackjack you could be called a professional. I realize it would be unrealistic to say you are a professional if you're a red chip bettor but thats why I asked the question. At what point would the money being made qualify as a professional level? Or maybe that doesn't matter. Also you say there are roads to tap into for inside info if you are deserving, but who's to judge. Its not like pros are holding tryouts to join their circle? What if you are very skilled but maybe have a limited bankroll. How does someone earn notice as a deserving player to get the inside track on professional extras?
That's true. A rookie league or 'A' ball player is paid to play baseball thus he is considered a professional, but realistically he needs to have another job, playing ball at that level.

The delineation I prefer is part-time pro vs. full-time pro. I consider myself a part-time pro because my full-time job is still being an engineer, but I use blackjack as a part-time job and I rely on the income from it, just as if I had a part-time job tending bar or working in a supermarket. It allows me to have a slightly more opulent lifestyle than if I did not. A recreational player might have the tools to play with an advantage, but he does not plan on making a steady profit.

The skills and quality of play of all three types of players is variable and overlapping. In other words, there is no such thing as a "professional technique"- if you at your level of play learn to use some advanced technique, use it. It doesn't make you a pro if you use it, and a player who doesn't use it isn't necessarily not a pro.

One major difference between the full-time and part-time pro is the level of risk they can assume. It may be counterintutive at first, but a part-timer can assume much more of most types of risks than a full-timer. Therefore, it would be inappropriate for a guy like me to commingle bankroll with a full-timer? Why? Simple- if I lose all my money I still have a job. If he loses all his money, I can't very easily hire him as an engineer to replace it. Therefore I can play to a much higher RoR and also take greater risks of burning out a joint, because I spend less time playing than he does and can always go someplace else. The one risk I can assume less of than a full-timer is arrest. In the kind of work I do it would be unacceptable for me to have a criminal record, and even without a conviction, calling into work on a Monday morning and explaining that I'm in the house of detention and won't be in for a few days would be a professional embarrassment and not completely laughed off by my colleagues.

Advantage play attracts some very flawed people which is one of the reasons why most will fail. The lifestyle (as it is generally believed to be) is attractive to a drug addict and others who are not likely to be successful in mainstream employment. The successful full-time pros I know are not particularly warm but generally amiable, and the type of person who will say something nice to you or say nothing at all. They do not attack others, they do not crave attention nor set out to anger and offend people. They are reticent about their own professional techniques but will usually discuss the techniques you use with you, if you wish. Therefore when you see a person on a message board running off at the mouth, bloviating about how good he is and how everybody else sucks, you can be very certain this is a person with something to hide and not a good example to follow in your own career.

My recommendation on learning the advanced AP techniques is to start be reading books on them. There are a few books about tracking and sequencing out there; all of them have some value but all of them have their flaws. After you do all of that, you spend a lot of time observing shuffles and dealers, you sit down with your computer and your cards and fiddle about with modifying what you have learned from the books to be of value towards what you have observed in the casino.

When practicing my two careers of engineering and advantage play, I use similar methods and philosophy. Start with proven basics (like card counting) and never be clever for the sake of being clever. Discuss with your colleagues, arrange simple and inexpensive experiments to obtain data and prove the concepts of your hypotheses. Don't be afraid or ashamed to walk away from a good idea that turns out not to work very well in the real world. When other people want to take credit for your new ideas, let them, as long as they are willing to also take the risk of your new ideas. And be a nice guy. All of the opportunities I've had in life would have been given to someone else if I had been a miserable little prick.
 
#22
Automatic Monkey said:
That's true. A rookie league or 'A' ball player is paid to play baseball thus he is considered a professional, but realistically he needs to have another job, playing ball at that level.

The delineation I prefer is part-time pro vs. full-time pro. I consider myself a part-time pro because my full-time job is still being an engineer, but I use blackjack as a part-time job and I rely on the income from it, just as if I had a part-time job tending bar or working in a supermarket. It allows me to have a slightly more opulent lifestyle than if I did not. A recreational player might have the tools to play with an advantage, but he does not plan on making a steady profit.

The skills and quality of play of all three types of players is variable and overlapping. In other words, there is no such thing as a "professional technique"- if you at your level of play learn to use some advanced technique, use it. It doesn't make you a pro if you use it, and a player who doesn't use it isn't necessarily not a pro.

One major difference between the full-time and part-time pro is the level of risk they can assume. It may be counterintutive at first, but a part-timer can assume much more of most types of risks than a full-timer. Therefore, it would be inappropriate for a guy like me to commingle bankroll with a full-timer? Why? Simple- if I lose all my money I still have a job. If he loses all his money, I can't very easily hire him as an engineer to replace it. Therefore I can play to a much higher RoR and also take greater risks of burning out a joint, because I spend less time playing than he does and can always go someplace else. The one risk I can assume less of than a full-timer is arrest. In the kind of work I do it would be unacceptable for me to have a criminal record, and even without a conviction, calling into work on a Monday morning and explaining that I'm in the house of detention and won't be in for a few days would be a professional embarrassment and not completely laughed off by my colleagues.

Advantage play attracts some very flawed people which is one of the reasons why most will fail. The lifestyle (as it is generally believed to be) is attractive to a drug addict and others who are not likely to be successful in mainstream employment. The successful full-time pros I know are not particularly warm but generally amiable, and the type of person who will say something nice to you or say nothing at all. They do not attack others, they do not crave attention nor set out to anger and offend people. They are reticent about their own professional techniques but will usually discuss the techniques you use with you, if you wish. Therefore when you see a person on a message board running off at the mouth, bloviating about how good he is and how everybody else sucks, you can be very certain this is a person with something to hide and not a good example to follow in your own career.

My recommendation on learning the advanced AP techniques is to start be reading books on them. There are a few books about tracking and sequencing out there; all of them have some value but all of them have their flaws. After you do all of that, you spend a lot of time observing shuffles and dealers, you sit down with your computer and your cards and fiddle about with modifying what you have learned from the books to be of value towards what you have observed in the casino.

When practicing my two careers of engineering and advantage play, I use similar methods and philosophy. Start with proven basics (like card counting) and never be clever for the sake of being clever. Discuss with your colleagues, arrange simple and inexpensive experiments to obtain data and prove the concepts of your hypotheses. Don't be afraid or ashamed to walk away from a good idea that turns out not to work very well in the real world. When other people want to take credit for your new ideas, let them, as long as they are willing to also take the risk of your new ideas. And be a nice guy. All of the opportunities I've had in life would have been given to someone else if I had been a miserable little prick.
Blah, blah, blah...I think it's been firmly established you're a loser in all walks of life. Even Bojack slammed your sorry ass.
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#23
asiafever said:
Craps Master/Stalker/LVHLM/wathever... can you tell me why you continue to post here if you hate everyone and everyone hates you? If you think only idiots who can't play blackjack post in these forums, then do yourself a favor and stop reading them.
Even if they offend people, I like to have them around. I'd rather listen to offensive pros that actually make a living doing what they talk about over some nice guy posting about it that has no clue.
 

jimbiggs

Well-Known Member
#24
ScottH said:
Even if they offend people, I like to have them around. I'd rather listen to offensive pros that actually make a living doing what they talk about over some nice guy posting about it that has no clue.
Do these guys ever post anything useful? If it wasn't for a post where ZG said he saw them playing at a table, I would still believe they were all too young to gamble in a casino. I could care less about personal conflicts between this person and that person, I just want to win some f'ing money. Threads like this one that are taken over by flamers are just waste of space.
 

Craps Master

Well-Known Member
#25
QFIT said:
So, Arnold Snyder is a hack? Is there anyone other than yourself you think can play BJ?

No need to answer. You've reached my boredom level for the week.
No, QFIT, just you, Don, and Semyon. If you think allying yourself with other people, some of whom are legitimate, but many of whom are not, gives you any credibility, then that's your perogative. Because we all know your software and your prowess at the tables (zero) don't give you any. Let's face it, you're a frequenter of forums and an armchair player. I seriously doubt you have even earned five figures in casinos in your entire life, and I seriously doubt the people who buy your software make any money off of that investment either. You are part of the weekend warrior set, and you cater to the weekend warrior fantasies. You don't actually know very much about blackjack or casino gambling in general and so, I reiterate, I can't wait for you to publish those pamphlets.
 

Craps Master

Well-Known Member
#26
jimbiggs said:
Do these guys ever post anything useful? If it wasn't for a post where ZG said he saw them playing at a table, I would still believe they were all too young to gamble in a casino. I could care less about personal conflicts between this person and that person, I just want to win some f'ing money. Threads like this one that are taken over by flamers are just waste of space.
I have posted plenty of useful information. The onus is not on me, however, to see to it that you manage to let it sink in. I can only offer you professional wisdom (the very subject of this thread); it falls to you and the various other detractors to open your minds to the possibility that you are wrong in a great many of your assumptions about the nature of advantage play. And, on top of that, you must unlearn some of the erroneous information you've come across in dealing with poseurs and second-rate players on the internet if you wish to make some f'ing money. I know it's hard when people enrobe themselves in the raiment of authority, and when they flood the messageboards with so many thousands of posts as to be unignorable, but you must see your way out from the labyrinthine prison of ignorance in which they have conspired to incarcerate you. Such is the very definition of advantage play, that which drives us in our hearts: emancipation from ignorance and the system, enlightenment, and the ability to exercise our good judgment to make some f'ing money.

You're welcome.
 

JoeV

Active Member
#27
I want to say thank you to Auto Monkey and Qfit for intelligent and helpful responses to my questions. My next question is how do you avoid letting questions get turned into all this name calling crap? It seems there are a certain few that you can't say or ask anything without getting their nasty responses. It makes you just not to want to ask questions. If these are what professional players are like, I think I will be much happier staying at the novice level, at least here most know how to act civil.
 
#29
JoeV said:
I want to say thank you to Auto Monkey and Qfit for intelligent and helpful responses to my questions. My next question is how do you avoid letting questions get turned into all this name calling crap? It seems there are a certain few that you can't say or ask anything without getting their nasty responses. It makes you just not to want to ask questions. If these are what professional players are like, I think I will be much happier staying at the novice level, at least here most know how to act civil.
Any time, man. What you are observing is not what most pros are like. This is what some internet pros are like. Internet pros, internet experts, internet tough-guys. I think you know what I'm getting at.
 

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#30
Pro class or classless pro

Hey Joev don't sweat the thread you'll get trashed anywhere for trying. I found this forum good for the available info you can gleen. I don't care what sport or job a person has if he doesn't have any class. Stick around and you'll find this place helpful to a certain level of play. The pros are pros for alot of reasons that you and i may never reach that level. blackchipjim
 

Craps Master

Well-Known Member
#31
JoeV said:
I want to say thank you to Auto Monkey and Qfit for intelligent and helpful responses to my questions. My next question is how do you avoid letting questions get turned into all this name calling crap? It seems there are a certain few that you can't say or ask anything without getting their nasty responses. It makes you just not to want to ask questions. If these are what professional players are like, I think I will be much happier staying at the novice level, at least here most know how to act civil.
Only when you have realized that my responses in this thread have been infinitely more valuable than those of the aforementioned minor-leaguers will you be prepared to start taking the necessary steps to becoming a professional level player. Everything I've posted on this site has been completely sound, and people like you could really benefit from it, if you could just open your mind to the idea that expertise at exploiting casino weaknesses and expertise at pumping yourself up with rhetoric and appeals to groupthink on internet forums are not the same thing. If you do not like the answers you get, the real answers from the real professionals, then that is a problem that you're going to have to overcome, because advice along the lines of don't listen to internet authorities who don't actually have much casino experience and don't look to software to make you a professional level player couldn't be any more on the mark. Professionals do know more, and one thing we don't do is teach our tricks to the myriad advantage play lightweights who populate the internet forums, clamoring for the opportunity to be regarded as experts by the unenlightened masses. Such is the nature of the human ego, but do not let their shortcomings become your shortcomings.

That, my friend, is the best advice you've gotten all day. I guarantee it.
 

Craps Master

Well-Known Member
#32
blackchipjim said:
Hey Joev don't sweat the thread you'll get trashed anywhere for trying. I found this forum good for the available info you can gleen. I don't care what sport or job a person has if he doesn't have any class. Stick around and you'll find this place helpful to a certain level of play. The pros are pros for alot of reasons that you and i may never reach that level. blackchipjim
My problem is I have too much class. It compels me to come to sites like this and be as helpful as I have been. The rewards I reap in return are meager, but my incredibly good and generous nature lands me here playing the altruist all the same. True professionals are usually marked by apathy toward their inferiors and unfettered greed. You will not see those people come to sites like this to set the newbies straight. And so, again, to all the aspiring professionals and even to you recreationalists looking to sharpen your game, you're welcome.
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#33
I think I heard this speech in 1932.

PS. Craps Master is not Stalker. She just gave herself away in this latest rant.

PPS. Both Craps Master and Stalker are staked by a cardcounter catcher.
 
Last edited:

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#34
Craps Master said:
Only when you have realized that my responses in this thread have been infinitely more valuable than those of the aforementioned minor-leaguers will you be prepared to start taking the necessary steps to becoming a professional level player.
That’s true. This entire thread is devoid of any useful BJ information. It started out as an honest question but quickly turned into a group attack of Craps Master.

Craps Master said:
Everything I've posted on this site has been completely sound, and people like you could really benefit from it, if you could just open your mind…
There really has been some very good information. If you look closely you can find some hidden gems if you are ready for them. I think the “drill sergeant” approach is just meant to be a slap in the face to wake us out of the “card counting coma.”

Craps Master said:
If you do not like the answers you get, the real answers from the real professionals, then that is a problem that you're going to have to overcome, because advice along the lines of don't listen to internet authorities who don't actually have much casino experience and don't look to software to make you a professional level player couldn't be any more on the mark. Professionals do know more, and one thing we don't do is teach our tricks to the myriad advantage play lightweights who populate the internet forums…

That, my friend, is the best advice you've gotten all day. I guarantee it.
Amen. You won’t become a professional-level player by reading books. It takes a lot of homework and pure table time. Most of the skills you will need will have to be developed and practiced on your own. Sure, the basics are incredibly important to lay a solid foundation, but there will come a time when you stop learning things from books and the internet. The only way to stop “spinning your wheels” is to make the next step on your own. Until you have reached that level, nothing CM says is going to make much sense to you.

-Sonny-
 
#35
QFIT said:
I think I heard this speech in 1932.

PS. Craps Master is not Stalker. She just gave herself away in this latest rant.

PPS. Both Craps Master and Stalker are staked by a cardcounter catcher.
LMAO, those guys are right, you really are mentally ill.
 
#37
Sonny said:
...Amen. You won’t become a professional-level player by reading books. It takes a lot of homework and pure table time. Most of the skills you will need will have to be developed and practiced on your own. Sure, the basics are incredibly important to lay a solid foundation, but there will come a time when you stop learning things from books and the internet. The only way to stop “spinning your wheels” is to make the next step on your own. Until you have reached that level, nothing CM says is going to make much sense to you.

-Sonny-
I wouldn't say that you ever totally stop learning things from books and the net, because there are always new books and people saying new things on the net. A lot of the people on this site do not have your level of experience and need to learn the principles of basic and intermediate card counting before they are ready to devise their own advanced AP techniques, which should probably never be discussed openly here anyway. A person who comes around saying "Ha ha, you're no good, you're no good, you're not as smart as me, you don't use unpublished professional techniques" is of no value to a community unless they are planning on revealing those unpublished professional techniques here, which would make them a detriment to the community.

Furthermore, there is no way to tell whether a person with such an attitude is really an expert trying to help you, or just a BS artist trying to blow smoke up your butt. I can't come up with any scenario where a legitimate expert with honorable intent would go to someone else's website (when they already have one of their own) and spew forth arrogance, hostility and vulgarity especially after they had been asked by the site's owner not to.

Therefore logic compels me to conclude that they are either not legitimate experts or not honorable, and regardless of which one it is they cannot be believed or trusted. I don't enjoy saying things like that about anyone, so if you can see any way around that conclusion I'd love to hear it so I can take it back.
 
#39
Automatic Monkey said:
I wouldn't say that you ever totally stop learning things from books and the net, because there are always new books and people saying new things on the net. A lot of the people on this site do not have your level of experience and need to learn the principles of basic and intermediate card counting before they are ready to devise their own advanced AP techniques, which should probably never be discussed openly here anyway. A person who comes around saying "Ha ha, you're no good, you're no good, you're not as smart as me, you don't use unpublished professional techniques" is of no value to a community unless they are planning on revealing those unpublished professional techniques here, which would make them a detriment to the community.

Furthermore, there is no way to tell whether a person with such an attitude is really an expert trying to help you, or just a BS artist trying to blow smoke up your butt. I can't come up with any scenario where a legitimate expert with honorable intent would go to someone else's website (when they already have one of their own) and spew forth arrogance, hostility and vulgarity especially after they had been asked by the site's owner not to.

Therefore logic compels me to conclude that they are either not legitimate experts or not honorable, and regardless of which one it is they cannot be believed or trusted. I don't enjoy saying things like that about anyone, so if you can see any way around that conclusion I'd love to hear it so I can take it back.


Let's see what we have here...

one poster can be vouched for by legions of professional players across the globe.

Another poster, of the simian variety - vouched for by no one - pretends to be something he's not, putting up post after post of incorrect, misleading information on a site filled with unskilled, inexperienced players. This poster has previously been exposed as a fraud by maybe the sites most experienced regular poster, yet claims he is fit to be the arbiter of who is or is not a real player.
 
#40
The sites most prolific poster - a convicted fraud - despised by every professional player on the planet, continues to defend his deviant behavior as a "misunderstanding" by pointing to a prison interview taken by his most loyal lackey, the bumbling Barfarkel. On a site filled with mostly unskilled, inexperienced newbies, the webmaster allows this poster to freely ply his trade of befriending newbies then pilfering their bankrolls.

Yet another poster - an autistic mentally ill computer programmer with a persecution complex - continues to dream up fantasies regarding professional players and their abilities, as well as continuing to pretend he is banned by other sites, all in effort to save sagging sales of his near worthless software.

You can't make it up...
 
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