Spanish 21 book

Sonny said:
I was using the EoRs from Wild Bill's post 8 years ago. He may have been using a different set of rules than the ones currently available. I'm sure the game has changed since then, but I really haven't kept up with it.

-Sonny-
A lot of people have used those numbers; they're not bad but I'm not sure how they were derived. There may have been a few rules left out. The EoR I have were calculated by MGP and his wonderful CA and they're posted over on AP.com somewhere in the archives.

The CA was compared to a CVData 4 sim and when you compensate for the couple of odd plays CVData does not recognize (the biggest one is hitting suited 7's vs. 7 for the super bonus) the calculated house edges match within about 0.01. That's the kind of thing that gives me a ton of confidence in both the CA and the sim.
 
Is it beatable for the game of SP21 with this rules ?

Dear Miss Katarina,

8 deck
Penetration 85% to 87.5%
One card only for split Ace(no double down after you draw a card !)
Late surrender
Double on first two card only, no redoubling
Dealer hits on soft 17

Is it beatable ?

Your reply would be much appreciated

James
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
Spanish 21 is beatable and why.

There are factors that make Spanish21 the BEST choice for play.

1. You are willing and able to learn a complex Basic Strategy and a simple Card Counting system.

2. You have a substantial bankroll of discretionary funds that you are able to put at risk.

3. You are willing to spread rather widely, perhaps 30 or 40 or 50 to one on multiple spots; thus accepting a large R.O.R.

Personally, while I cannot present any stats on this issue, I myself would feel O.K. with this game spreading from one spot of $10 to two or three spots of $200+ -- with a bankroll of no less than $10,000, and preferably, twice that.

Your real advantage will come from playing a game that the casinos believe to be unbeatable; and that the Surveillance Crew and Pit Bosses are clueless as to how to play. -- thus permitting you to ramp your bets very aggressively.

Think of it this way:

Even the worst BJ game in the world would be beatable if you had Warren Buffet's bankroll and the opportunity to spread 200 to 1 by a clueless casino.
 

duanedibley

Well-Known Member
Hi,

I'm interested in this book - but can anyone tell me if it has indices for S17 Spanish 21? I looked at the google books preview and found only a H17 table.

Thanks.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
FLASH1296 said:
There are factors that make Spanish21 the BEST choice for play.

1. You are willing and able to learn a complex Basic Strategy and a simple Card Counting system.

BS is a little different but not that bad lol. Hi-Lo count system is what she uses in her book.

2. You have a substantial bankroll of discretionary funds that you are able to put at risk.

It's about the same as BJ.

3. You are willing to spread rather widely, perhaps 30 or 40 or 50 to one on multiple spots; thus accepting a large R.O.R.
Utter nonsense. No reason at all increasing spread or spreading to spots should change your ROR. If you don't want it to, that is.

FLASH1296 said:
Personally, while I cannot present any stats on this issue, I myself would feel O.K. with this game spreading from one spot of $10 to two or three spots of $200+ -- with a bankroll of no less than $10,000, and preferably, twice that.
Is there anything you wouldn't feel OK with?

FLASH1296 said:
Your real advantage will come from playing a game that the casinos believe to be unbeatable; and that the Surveillance Crew and Pit Bosses are clueless as to how to play. -- thus permitting you to ramp your bets very aggressively.
Maybe they are clueless like a fox since spreading 50 to 1 on multiple spots, according to you, creates a large ROR but yet somehow, at the same time, makes this the BEST game to play.

FLASH1296 said:
Think of it this way:

Even the worst BJ game in the world would be beatable if you had Warren Buffet's bankroll and the opportunity to spread 200 to 1 by a clueless casino.
You wouldn't need his bankroll - only to be allowed to do it.
 
Kasi said:
As I recall it was somewhere in the ordering process - like whether you wanted it printed or as a PDF file. So I think maybe you have to be in the secure section of the website. Maybe where they say something like printing will take a few work days. As I recall lol. Keep your eyes open anyway lol.
Was anyone ever able to purchase an (updated) .pdf version of the book? I went through most of the lulu purchase process, and didn't see the option

(Dead link: http://www.spanishcountess.com/) is still down, but a cached version from Live.com as of 17/08/2008 says this (I'll quote it here in case the cached version dissapears):

Errata: The Pro's Guide to Spanish 21 and Australian Pontoon
This book is POD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print_on_demand , so errors are fixed in the book as soon as they are identified.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For copies purchased prior to 27 February 2008:


Page 16: Basic strategy for H17 with redoubling. The play for 9 versus 7 should be H, 10 versus 7 should be D4, 10 versus 8 should be D3, 11 versus 7 should be D4, and 11 versus 8 should be D4.

Page 35: In the last paragraph, lines 6 and 7, delete "double on nine against seven and draw three (or A-2)".

Page 35: In the last paragraph, line 9, the word "nine" should be "ten".

Page 35: In the last paragraph, lines 10-12, delete the sentence "In fact, the only reason why we double on nine versus seven is because a redouble rescue on hard twelve is the correct play."

Page 45: In Table 4.8, HE for 8-deck H17 with redoubling should be 0.44%, and HE(TT) for 8-deck H17 with redoubling should be 0.36%.

Page 154: The last line of Table A9 should read "9-9 7 S/P 1".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For copies purchased prior to 2 March 2008:
Page 153: In Table A6 (6-deck H17 with redoubling), substitute the lines below. (Note that there is very little difference in most of the lines. In some lines, there is no difference at all. The most significant differences are for 9, 10, and 11.)

Dealer's up card
Player's hand 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 X A
5 H/D H H 2 -2 -5 H H H H H
6 H/D H H 2 -1 -4 H H H H H
7 H/D H 5 2 -1 -4 H H H H H
8 H/D 4 0 -2 -5 -7 1 H H H H
9 H/D -2 -4 -6 -8 -10 -3 1 H H H
10 H/D -7 -8 -9 -10 -13 -7 -4 -2 0 0
11 H/D -10 -12 -12 -13 D -10 -6 -5 -4 -4
S13 H/D 3 -5 -9 -11 D H H H H H
S14 H/D H -3 -7 -9 D H H H H H
S15 H/D H 4 -6 -9 -13 H H H H H
S16 H/D H H -3 -7 -11 H H H H H
S17 H/D H 1 -4 -8 -11 H H H H H
S18 H/S -10 -10 -11 -11 D S -11 H H H
S18 S/D 2 -2 -6 -8 D S S H H H
S19 S/D S 6 3 1 0 S S S S S
S20 S/D S S 6 4 4 S S S S S
2-2 H/P -4 -7 -9 -12 P P -5 H H H
3-3 H/P -6 -9 -13 P P P P H H H
4-4 H/D 3 0 -3 -5 -7 1 H H H H
4-4 D/P H H H 3 -1 H H H H H
6-6 H/P 1 -2 -5 -8 P 0 H H H H
7-7 H/P -6 -8 -9 -11 P P: 3 H H H



Page 154: Replace Table A8 entirely with the following table.

Hand Upcard Play Index
6 3 H/D 6
7 3 H/D 6
8 2 H/D 3
8 7 H/D 2
9 5 H/D -7
10 6 H/D -12
11 8 H/D -7
S13 2 H/D 2
S14 5 H/D -10
S15 3 H/D H
S18 4 H/S -10
S18 8 H/S -10
S19 4 S/D 4
3-3 2 H/P -5
3-3 3 H/P -8
3-3 5 H/P -13
4-4 6 D/P -2
7-7 4 H/P -12
7-7 5 H/P P
9-9 7 S/P 1
12 (RD rescue) 2 D/S -10

<end>


The lulu site http://www.lulu.com/content/1239961 does say:

The Pro's Guide to Spanish 21 and Australian Pontoon
by Katarina Walker
Paperback, 208 pages, ©2008, ISBN: 978-1-4357-1065-8
Usually takes 3-5 days to print

So this suggests the best place to buy it is at lulu, where you get a current copy printed for you (POD), as opposed to, say, Amazon as new or used, which might be out of date, unless they specifically say POD as well.

Thanks in advance!
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
SHO NUT said:
So this suggests the best place to buy it is at lulu, where you get a current copy printed for you (POD), as opposed to, say, Amazon as new or used, which might be out of date, unless they specifically say POD as well.
I much preferred buying the book rather than downloading it as a pdf file.

If you get a book, it will have the date it was printed on so you know which errata may be applicable.
 
Kasi said:
I much preferred buying the book rather than downloading it as a pdf file.

If you get a book, it will have the date it was printed on so you know which errata may be applicable.
Yep, that's become my opinion too. I just ordered it at http://www.lulu.com/content/1239961

I've just been playing SP21 BS for now, (and am up, thank goodness for the 'swings', lol) can't wait to count it.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
I'd love to have a .pdf copy so I can read and refer to it while traveling, and without having to lug it around. I have an automatic scanner at work but I can't bear to chop up my copy to scan it all in.

(Same thing goes for my other main BJ books, really. Also handy for searching.)
 

nuvi

Active Member
Basic Strategy Charts for Australian Pontoons

Mr. T said:
First of all can somebody tell me where I can find the BS chart for the Australian Pontoon.
Walker's book contains the information necessary to convert the Spanish 21 basic strategy chart into an Australian Pontoon basic strategy chart, but she does not actually provide charts for the 7 common Pontoon rule variations.

Take a look at http://www.hitorsplit.com/spanish21_game.html for a basic strategy trainer that also provides strategy charts for Pontoon.
 
Spanish 21 level 2 counts

Automatic Monkey said:
SP21 has very different EoR for the cards than BJ. 7 is a neutral card like 8 is in BJ and counting the 7 hurts you.

For SP21 (S17) I get for BC's:

High-Low: 0.920
Zen: 0.916
RPC: 0.922
Secret Monkey Count: 0.962
Unmanageable Count {A...10} {-2.5,1,1,2,2,1,0,-0.5,-0.5,-1}: 0.994
Hey AM, I'm new to these forums as well as to advantage play, but have spent the last month or so training hard for blackjack and spanish 21. I've read a number of your posts and an impressed with your replies. This one in particular caught my attention. I'm using the AOII count for BJ, and have been trying to configure an analagous count for SP21, but adjusted for the difference in EoR from BJ. The count I have devised, beginning with the 2-value card, is as follows: 1,1,2,2,2,0,-1,-1,-2, 0, with the aces side counted and adjusted, not as +/- 2, as in the OII, but rather as +/-3 here, to better qualify the aces EoR in SP21. Now for a few questions which I hope by your answer will benefit me, yourself and others interested in a level 2 count for SP21:

1) Using CVData, what are the BE, PE, IC and overall SCORE for this count? (Of course considering the ace side count when configuring the BE)

2) Would the indices be the same as Walker's, using this count if the TC is obtained by dividing by half-decks instead of whole as she used for her Hi-Lo? (as a level 2 count would be apt to do in comparison with a level 1)

3) Is my idea of +/- 3 for the ace better than +/- 2 and by how much?

I truly wish I had any concept of how to create this info using CVData. How did you get this knowledge? Is there a book on it?

A few other inteesting counts to consider, beginning from 2-A, for SP21 are:

A): 1,2,2,2,2,0,-1,-1,-2,-1 (Zen-like)

B): 1,2,3,3,2,0,-1,-1,-3, 0 (Uston APC-like)

C): 1,1,1,1,1,0,-1,-1,-1, 0 (Hi-Opt I-like)

D): 2,2,2,2,2,0,-1,-1,-2,-2 (Mentor-like)

E): 2,3,4,4,3,0,-1,-1,-3,-5 (Perhaps perfect BE)

Very interested to see what your expertise can come up with!
 
Pyrrhonian said:
Hey AM, I'm new to these forums as well as to advantage play, but have spent the last month or so training hard for blackjack and spanish 21. I've read a number of your posts and an impressed with your replies. This one in particular caught my attention. I'm using the AOII count for BJ, and have been trying to configure an analagous count for SP21, but adjusted for the difference in EoR from BJ. The count I have devised, beginning with the 2-value card, is as follows: 1,1,2,2,2,0,-1,-1,-2, 0, with the aces side counted and adjusted, not as +/- 2, as in the OII, but rather as +/-3 here, to better qualify the aces EoR in SP21. Now for a few questions which I hope by your answer will benefit me, yourself and others interested in a level 2 count for SP21:

1) Using CVData, what are the BE, PE, IC and overall SCORE for this count? (Of course considering the ace side count when configuring the BE)

2) Would the indices be the same as Walker's, using this count if the TC is obtained by dividing by half-decks instead of whole as she used for her Hi-Lo? (as a level 2 count would be apt to do in comparison with a level 1)

3) Is my idea of +/- 3 for the ace better than +/- 2 and by how much?

I truly wish I had any concept of how to create this info using CVData. How did you get this knowledge? Is there a book on it?

A few other inteesting counts to consider, beginning from 2-A, for SP21 are:

A): 1,2,2,2,2,0,-1,-1,-2,-1 (Zen-like)

B): 1,2,3,3,2,0,-1,-1,-3, 0 (Uston APC-like)

C): 1,1,1,1,1,0,-1,-1,-1, 0 (Hi-Opt I-like)

D): 2,2,2,2,2,0,-1,-1,-2,-2 (Mentor-like)

E): 2,3,4,4,3,0,-1,-1,-3,-5 (Perhaps perfect BE)

Very interested to see what your expertise can come up with!
Interesting thoughts here. Of the counts you list, the best will be D) because it doesn't short the ace.

Ace-neutral is a whole different kind of count and your initial approach is a good one. Using -4 for the ace will be best, as the EoR of the ace is 2.2-2.7 times that of the 10. Remember the value of the ace is unstable and non-linear and its EoR will go down in a shoe that is depleted of 10's.

You need to have CVData 4.0 and do a bit of experimentation to get your sim and indices. The multiple bonuses screw up CVIndex so set up a configuration that just has the bonus for an automatic win on 21 and use the composition dependent index generator to get your numbers.

The Secret Monkey Count is 1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,-1,-2 and it works just fine with Kat's index numbers if you add 4 to them.
 
Automatic Monkey said:
Interesting thoughts here. Of the counts you list, the best will be D) because it doesn't short the ace.

Ace-neutral is a whole different kind of count and your initial approach is a good one. Using -4 for the ace will be best, as the EoR of the ace is 2.2-2.7 times that of the 10. Remember the value of the ace is unstable and non-linear and its EoR will go down in a shoe that is depleted of 10's.

You need to have CVData 4.0 and do a bit of experimentation to get your sim and indices. The multiple bonuses screw up CVIndex so set up a configuration that just has the bonus for an automatic win on 21 and use the composition dependent index generator to get your numbers.

The Secret Monkey Count is 1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,-1,-2 and it works just fine with Kat's index numbers if you add 4 to them.
Very nice. Thanks AM, I owe you a beer.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
A.M.

You said: "Of the counts you list, the best will be D) because it doesn't short the ace."

You might have done well to mention the Ben Franklin Count !
 
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