Unbalanced counting - I need your thoughts

[thedon]

Hello all,

I'm currently looking at switching to an unbalanced count. Is there any MAJOR difference between an unbalanced count and lets say Hi-Lo (which I use now).

I'm a 6 deck shoe player, playing roughly 24 hours per week.

I've looked at this table here: http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

Looking at the betting correlation column for shoe games, the unbalanced systems of:
KO, KISS 3, Red Seven, REKO, Unbalanced Zen 2, and Uston SS... they all have the same if not slightly .01 better than Hi-Lo.

The only problem I have with these unbalanced counts is that under the Ease of Play column, they are all listed very easy (10 being most easy) with the exception of the Uston SS.

Generally, (I think anyways) the more easy something is, the less effective it is.

I'm thinking of the Uston SS for this reason.

Let me know what you think, thanks

 

[duanedibley]

Well you have the BC PE and IC numbers right there... Why are you trying to divine which count is most effective from the ease column?

 

[thedon]

As I mentioned that was just something I tend to think, it's like a "there's got to be something up here, this is to easy"

If that actually has no effect then please state so. I also asked a question at the top.

I'm mostly looking for experiences with balanced vs unbalanced

Well you have the BC PE and IC numbers right there... Why are you trying to divine which count is most effective from the ease column?

 

[SleightOfHand]

The main difference is in the instant accuracy of the count. In unbalanced strategies early in the shoe, the count will overestimate the true edge, while late in the shoe, the count will underestimate it. However, in the long run, the difference is in PC, BC, and IC. However, some may consider the ease of not having to convert to TCs may be worth the "inaccuracy."

 

[callipygian]

In unbalanced strategies early in the shoe, the count will overestimate the true edge, while late in the shoe, the count will underestimate it ... However, some may consider the ease of not having to convert to TCs may be worth the "inaccuracy."

This says everything I would say and nothing I wouldn't say about KO or Red 7 vs. Hi-Lo.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Hello all,

I'm currently looking at switching to an unbalanced count. Is there any MAJOR difference between an unbalanced count and lets say Hi-Lo (which I use now).

I'm a 6 deck shoe player, playing roughly 24 hours per week.

I've looked at this table here: http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

Looking at the betting correlation column for shoe games, the unbalanced systems of:
KO, KISS 3, Red Seven, REKO, Unbalanced Zen 2, and Uston SS... they all have the same if not slightly .01 better than Hi-Lo.

The only problem I have with these unbalanced counts is that under the Ease of Play column, they are all listed very easy (10 being most easy) with the exception of the Uston SS.

Generally, (I think anyways) the more easy something is, the less effective it is.

I'm thinking of the Uston SS for this reason.

Let me know what you think, thanks

I'd go with BRH-1 over Uston SS. The system tags for BRH-1 are {-2,1,2,2,3,2,1,0,0,-2}

Now if you want, you can use an unbalanced count in a true counted mode. The IRC for counts like SS and BRH-1 in a 6D game is going to be -24. To convert to true count just divide by the number of decks remaining like you would with High-Low. So the initial true count for these systems will be -4, and that will represent a neutral shoe at any count. True counting will also allow you to use the same index and spread numbers for any number of decks.

 

[squeeks]

This question is also what I was wondering. Right now I use hi-lo but the tc conversion always gives me a little bit of trouble. By looking at the attached qfit chart it looks as if ko is more effective then hi-lo and easyier to use. I'm contenplating weather to switch for the ease. My main question is, will ko make you more money in the long run? Note: in the near future I plan to be getting my main source of income.

 

[GAGE COUNTY]

Reko

Sometimes keeping it simple is the way to go. For the 6 deck games REKO is where its at. 99% of regular KO which is better than high lo. The indexes are all +2 and you could drink a beer, have a smoke, talk on the phone and hit on the cocktail waitress all at the same time while still keeping the count!!!:laugh:

 

[takinfromindians97]

Hello all,

I'm currently looking at switching to an unbalanced count. Is there any MAJOR difference between an unbalanced count and lets say Hi-Lo (which I use now).

I'm a 6 deck shoe player, playing roughly 24 hours per week.

I've looked at this table here: http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

Looking at the betting correlation column for shoe games, the unbalanced systems of:
KO, KISS 3, Red Seven, REKO, Unbalanced Zen 2, and Uston SS... they all have the same if not slightly .01 better than Hi-Lo.

The only problem I have with these unbalanced counts is that under the Ease of Play column, they are all listed very easy (10 being most easy) with the exception of the Uston SS.

Generally, (I think anyways) the more easy something is, the less effective it is.

I'm thinking of the Uston SS for this reason.

Let me know what you think, thanks

I am against your switch my friend. Reguardless of what the numbers say, i can tell you there is a reason why just about every pro in the world uses a balanced. I used to use unbalanced counts i used the UBZII for qutie some time and have found that even the hi-lo has more yield getting me actuall money and at the tables. You said yoourself if it was so easy but still worked everyone would switch over. I cannot tell you a scientific or mathematical reason for this just that i have played each for years and balanced is the way to go. I suggest you find way to improve your hi-lo count, so you play it flawlesly.

As for the uston SS its hard to find any literature on the count enough to feel satisfyd before playing it. At least for a perfectionest like me, if your dead set on using unbalanced at least go level 2 not kiss or ko or red

 

[duanedibley]

In unbalanced strategies early in the shoe, the count will overestimate the true edge, while late in the shoe, the count will underestimate it.

I thought it was the opposite.

For example you are using KO with IRC -24 on 6 decks. In the first deck the count increases by 12 so your RC is now -12. According to KO you are still at a disadvantage, but Hi-lo would put your TC at somewhere around +2.

 

[GAGE COUNTY]

You're right I think KO underestimates early and then becomes more accurate as the cards are dealt. But, if you think about it, if high lo says its +2 and you start betting more, there are still so many cards left and so much variance in those cards that it's prob better to use KO and wait to up your bet when its more likely you'll get those cards.

 

[duanedibley]

You're right I think KO underestimates early and then becomes more accurate as the cards are dealt. But, if you think about it, if high lo says its +2 and you start betting more, there are still so many cards left and so much variance in those cards that it's prob better to use KO and wait to up your bet when its more likely you'll get those cards.

Are you sure the variance is significantly higher with more cards remaining but the same true count? How do you calculate the variance as a function of true count and cards remaining? How high would it have to be for it to be "better" to sit out at a +EV count. Since the count is not going to be huge early in the show anyway, I don't think you'll be betting enough to have to worry about variance.

 

[thedon]

I'm only going to be playing 6d shoes, so maybe I should look at something like REKO...

What would be the wong out count for REKO? IRC -20 for 6 decks

 

[GAGE COUNTY]

wong out for reko

I found this on an old thread and although I don't know where it came from, it seems to be a reasonable exit strategy. It's probably similar to wonging out at -1 or -2 if using high lo. Does everyone think this looks ok?

get up if the count is........ -22 after 1 deck delt
-17 after 2 decks delt
-12 after 3 decks delt
:joker: